Roll Film with a LF camera (4x5? 2x3?)

[Tom Monego]

You can also check out a Horseman 2x3 field camera, a direct imitator of a Linhof, well made. But the standard lenses are only so-so, they have a Super line of lenses that is quite good though. The 65mm is especially nice. Had the camera for 3 or 4 years, my only nit-pick with it was the film holders didn't seem to hold the film really flat. I sold it for a 4x5 Linhof IV, a camera with some quirks but very nice overall. The Linhof film holders are fantastic, no question of film flatness.
But for a portable camera with movements the Horseman with the right lenses is a good choice.

Tom

[Oren Grad]

[*]To use a lens equivalent to 24mm or 28mm in 35mm format, so a 50mm or 60mm lens on the Toyo

If you can tell us what focal length(s) you'd like to use...

That's what happens when I post late at night...

Here is an example of a 6x9 field camera that is compact, lightweight and inexpensive new:

https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/..._detail&p=3164

I have a Horseman VH and VH-R. They're fine cameras, but can't accept lenses as short as 50-60mm without heroic measures.

[rdenney]

There are many options presented here. But having gone through this myself, I thought I would add a few points.

One is that 2x3 view cameras (either field or monorail) tend to be expensive. The Shen-Hao linked above is about as cheap as it gets (except for vintage press cameras such as the Century or 2x3 Speed Graphic). If you have one, 6x9 is as big as you can go, even if you later get the urge to try something new.

The 6x9 monorail cameras were built to provide high precision for professional use. Great if you can afford it, but not everyone has the scratch for a Linhof or an Arca-Swiss, wonderful though they are.

But 4x5 cameras are cheap on the ground, so I thought I would outline the issues with them.

The first big issue has been commented before: 4x5 cameras are often limited in how short the lenses can be for practical use in the field. Field cameras, in particularly, are subject to this limitation, and even the Shen-Hao 6x9 field camera will have difficulty with short lenses. But there are monorail cameras that can accommodate short lenses, and are readily available for cheap. The one I selected was a Sinar F. These regularly sell in the $300 range. They all have a 4x5 Graflok back, so they can take all holders designed for 4x5 cameras. And with the Wide Angle Bellows 2 (the double-pleated version that comes up on the used market occasionally for $200 or less), you can easily uses lenses down to 45 or 47mm on a flat lens board. With a recessed board (a little cumbersome, to be sure, but usable), you can use lenses down to 35mm. The camera will allow a useful range of lens movements with a 47mm lens, when using those bellows. The Wide Angle Bellows 1, which is the typical bag bellows, will also work down to 47, but it will limit movements and it may not accommodate an F2 with a metering back (which you don't need anyway).

The F does not have geared movements, so you have to have a little dexterity for very fine tilt and swing settings, but it can be done (I've done it).

You have also heard that it is cheaper to buy a roll-film holder than to try to accommodate your Mamiya backs on a 4x5 camera. This is correct. Wista and Horseman 6x9 holders are configured similarly to the Linhof Rollex, and they work well and are quite inexpensive on the used market. Graflex holders work, but the last one I bought (for 6x7) was a mix of parts that did not match properly. Another alternative is a Shen-Hao 6x12 holder which can be masked down to any format for use with 120 film. It uses a red-window advance so it is mechanically simple and fairly cheap even new. And it opens the door to 6x12 using roll film.

The slide-in roll film holders, such as those with the Calumet label, get mixed reviews for film flatness, but those who like them get good results. They are a bit fiddly, but they have the advantage of fitting under a bail back. Sinar makes a better one of this type, but even used these are not as cheap as the options above.

Instant film holders for Fuji peel-apart instant films are available for 4x5 cameras, too. They come in both the 3x4 and the 4x5 sizes, for pack films.

I still frequently use 6x7 and own a Pentax 6x7 kit. I even have the 75mm shift lens. But I find that tilting the lens is even more useful than shifting it, though with the short lenses it doesn't take much lens tilt to achieve a substantial tilting of the focus plane. The 45mm lens for the Pentax is excellent, but the early 70's 47/5.6 Super Angulon that I use for roll films is even better, and it allows as much movement as my camera can muster with 6x7 and 6x9. It even (barely) covers 6x12, where it is wiiiiiide.

As to portability, a 4x5 view camera intended for field use is no less portable than a 6x9 monorail for studio use. My Sinar F is not heavier than many field cameras, and it's pretty compact for a monorail camera. The flexibility of that system is unmatched, too, with mountains of goodies available on eBay at all times.

Arca-Swiss and Linhof also make fine view cameras that can accommodate very short lenses, but they are much more expensive. Sinar was no cheapie, but so many professionals used them that they are plentiful enough to keep prices very low.

Rick "thinking this application needs system interchangeability and flexibility more than most" Denney

[tendim]

Wow! I didn't expect so many replies in such a short time period - this definitely is an active forum. First and foremost, thank you everyone for the kind welcomes and comments on my original questions.

I've taken a look at some of the cameras suggested, and have some more questions..

• The Arca Swiss 6x9 FC looks like a beautiful machine, but seems very expensive! Money aside, how much does the unit weigh? I currently use a Feisol carbon fibre tripod for my 35mm and Bronica work (but not the Mamiya); would this be sufficient?
• Poking around, I've found a "LINHOF BABY Technika 6x9" camera which is definitely in my price range.. I'm a little confused on the Linhof cameras. Are these all folders/range finders? And I've seen various references to different generations (I, II, III) and lines "Technika" among others). What should I be looking for at these? Can a Linhof perform the shifts and swings I would require? What about wide lenses?
• What about the Toyo 23G? The body alone is definitely in my budget, provided I can mount my RB backs on it, I would only need a lens. I rather like the quality of my Toyo 45M, although it weights too much for me to take backpacking with its all metal construction. I'm wondering how good this is in the field? There is a review on this site comparing it to the "Galvin 2x3". However the author does make reference to its increased weight and not using it for "extended walks". How realistic is this?
• Finally, I've also found a Bush Pressman 6x9, but haven't found much else on this unit either. Is it possible to mount conventional 6x7 backs on this unit? Or change the lenses given I had a spare lens board?

At first glance the Arca Swiss looks like the dream machine; not a folder, but given its minute size with the collapsible column, it would take up minimal space in whatever bag I had. However, the 23G is well within my budget and would allow me to spend the rest of my money on lenses.

Thanks again for any input.

[engl]

I do not own any such cameras, but this site does have a roundup of 2x3 cameras.
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/roundup2x3.html

The Toyo 23G you mention is included, all 4kg of it

You can read more about Linhof Technika/Super-Technika here, look for the reply by Jean-Louis Llech at the bottom:
http://photo.net/medium-format-photography-forum/00FbMR
If you want movements with wide lenses, a Technika might not be the best choice. There is a review of the IV version here on the site:
http://www.largeformatphotography.in...chnika-23.html
It mentions lenses wider than 95mm having movements restricted by the box. The Master Technika 4x5 was given better movements with wide lenses, but I have no idea if a Master version was made for 2x3 format. (Baby Linhof is not a real name, it is a nickname for Linhof Technika/Super Technika 2x3).

Did you take a look at the Shen Hao that Oren Grad linked?

[Sharkonwheels]

The Horseman VH-R was mentioned, and just to show a pointer, during my many eBay scouring marathon session, I ran across a couple of VERY complete packages.

I hope ebay links are OK? These aren't my items, nor do I know the sellers, nor do I endorse them - just showing there are some REALLY good deals going on right now...

This guy, for example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Horseman-VHR-Exp...item43a3199dcc

is selling a VERY complete bundle for $750 starting. 3 lenses, 2 original Horseman backs, film holders.

If I wasn't moving up to 4x5, I'd seriously consider that. The Horseman 2x3 backs alone run anywhere from $100-150/ea!

Another is at $450 first bid, but has a reserve:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Horseman-VH-R-6x...item3cb25f455e

again, camera, 3 lenses with cams, rollfilm back, sheetfilm holders, even a 4x5 back with 4x5 holders.

I don't know what your budget is, but there are options.

Those aren't mine, I don't know those folks, just showing that there ARE some decent deals out there.

I personally can't vouch for Horseman, but from what I've read, I personally wouldn't think twice.

If you want to shoot rollfilm, make ABSOLUTELY SURE that the camera you get has a graflok ("international") back for rollholders, or you will be asking for nothing but misery.

You mentioned a Busch Pressman, and unless it's been modified, I don't THINK they ever came with graflok back, and neither did Meridians.

Linhof made (makes?) 2x3 cameras, and they are available online all the time - I think KEH showed one under "in-transit" a few days ago. You

I personally have a '51 Graflex Pacemaker Speed Graphic 23 with Graflok back
<HornToot>
(listed in the For Sale Section)
</HornToot>

That I am selling, simply to be able to afford a 4x5 Wista 45D I just purchased from another forum member here.

In general, decent enough cameras, and if you don't need the rear focal plane shutter, you can go with a Century Graphic, as well. However, as these are press cameras, they have limited movements available to the front, and I think none on the rear.

You can always, as you mention, get a 4x5 and use rollholders for 120 film 6x6/6x7/6x9, but that'd be akin to using a cannon to fire shotgun shells - a whole lot of added size and weight, for not much benefit. I want to be able to shoot 4x5, but still have the ability to shoot on 120 film, so the Wista 4x5 for me is fine.

[B.S.Kumar]

While the Horseman VH series are pretty good cameras, they aren't much different from the Wisa 45 series in size and weight. The Wista 45D measures 8"x7"x4" and weighs 2.5 kg. The Horseman VH-R 1 measures 7.5"x6"x4", and weighs 2kg. The Horseman board measures 80mm overall, while the Wista board has an opening of 80mm, allowing much larger lenses to be used. The Horseman has no interchangeable bellows. The Wista WA bellows are pretty nifty.

And finally, you don't need a Graflok back to use roll film. Wista, Toyo, Sinar and Linhof all make excellent slide in type backs, and Calumet backs are fairly easy to find.

Kumar

[Ivan J. Eberle]

I too think a working rangefinder is also a huge plus with using roll film holders on a press-type field camera. I have a Super Graphic that I bought for such use. The main issue is that most will not work with very short lenses-- at least not what's short relative to 6x7 (from 37mm to 65mm). The beds are going to be in the way, you'll need to drop them, and then you'll want need some way to accurately focus the inner rail. So the SG is not so good for short lenses (sub 90mm). My Meridian 45B is good with it's inner focusing rail and drop bed but doesn't have a Graflok back (though some have been adapted to Graflok backs). Newer Linhof Master Technikas (2000, 3000) work like this too.

Monorails with bag bellows are a joy to use with short lenses. A Sinar 4x5 can be bought for a song these days (relatively speaking), and most all will take bag bellows and focus with short short lenses on non-recessed boards. Maybe physically bigger than you want to carry, though.

That said, the Galvin 2x3 is a non-bag bellows camera with a cool bail back that allows using standard Mamiya RB 67 type backs-- without removing the ground glass. But it's a bit tight with a 47mm, and the moves are a bit crude.

[Oren Grad]

While the Horseman VH series are pretty good cameras, they aren't much different from the Wisa 45 series in size and weight. The Wista 45D measures 8"x7"x4" and weighs 2.5 kg. The Horseman VH-R 1 measures 7.5"x6"x4", and weighs 2kg.

The VH is considerably smaller and lighter. I just measured mine at roughly 6"x6"x3.75", and it weighs about 1.7kg. There's no point lugging a rangefinder if you're not going to use it.

In any case, it's moot. The OP wants to use a lens in the 50-60mm range. Much as I like the VH / VH-R, it's not well suited to that.

[B.S.Kumar]

I got my information on the Horseman VH-R 1 here: http://martyfoto.host.sk/horseman/horsemanVHR1.html Only the Wista 45RF has a rangefinder, not the other models. And for wides of around 50-60mm, the Horseman would be pretty difficult to use.

For wides, as Rick and Ivan say, a monorail with a short rail and WA bellows is the best.
Kumar