Your preferred STOP+FIX+Hypo+Wash for FB paper (for toning and drying and flatten)

[Doremus Scudder]

In the original work at Ilford that led to its archival/optimum permanence sequence it was found 30s fixing in the "film-strength" rapid fixer was sufficient. Since it was also found that extending this to 60s did not materially impact the efficiency of the remainder of the process, it was decided 60s would be a better recommendation to provide a good safety margin.

Michael,

Thanks for this. I was unaware of the research and the fact that 30 seconds will do the job. My reservation with using stronger fixer for prints was what to do about drain time, especially with larger prints and two-bath fixation (which entails two drain steps, albeit a shorter first one). Now it seems that including the drain time in the total 60-second time while still not exceeding it would be more feasible, especially for prints 11x14 and smaller. Still, I'm wondering if I can successfully incorporate that into my workflow, which entails giving the prints fix #1 (presently for 1.5-2 minutes in "print-strength fixer), washing, drying, culling the non-keepers and then setting up for a toning session with a soak, fix #2, toner, rinse, wash aid and then a final wash. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

Of course, I'd have to retest all my (shorter) wash times

Best,

Doremus

[Michael R]

I’m not sure I understand what you’re asking, Doremus. I wouldn’t change anything you’re doing if it’s working well. I think if people have water conservation concerns it might be easier to do Ilford’s optimum sequence than other more traditional approaches, but the tradeoff is lower throughout capacity. I only posted the info in case people who wanted to use the optimum sequence were worried about it being too difficult to control (drain time should be included in the 60s fixing time). It’s the procedure I prefer in my own work - but I’m not a high volume printer, nor do I make large prints.

[Doremus Scudder]

I’m not sure I understand what you’re asking, Doremus. I wouldn’t change anything you’re doing if it’s working well. I think if people have water conservation concerns it might be easier to do Ilford’s optimum sequence than other more traditional approaches, but the tradeoff is lower throughout capacity. I only posted the info in case people who wanted to use the optimum sequence were worried about it being too difficult to control (drain time should be included in the 60s fixing time). It’s the procedure I prefer in my own work - but I’m not a high volume printer, nor do I make large prints.

Thanks Michael,

I'm happy with what I'm doing now, but if I could streamline my workflow, especially wash time, by using stronger fix for a shorter time, it might be useful at times when processing time was an important consideration. The trade-off in throughput is a bit off-putting, though . Right now I'm standardized at 36 8x10s or equivalent through a liter of fix #1 at "print strength." I assume that I'd lose 50% of that capacity by moving to "film-strength fixer (meaning that throughput per liter would stay the same, but the fixer would be twice as strong, and therefore less economical).

I'm also wondering if I could really give a print half the fixing time, i.e., 30 seconds, in fix #1, then wash and dry it, and keep it around for up to a few weeks/months before moving to a toning session where the print gets fix #2 and then toning. Right now, since I'm not trying to optimize wash time, I just give a print 1.5-2 minutes in fix #1, which is pretty close to the total fixing time needed for one-fix processing, then I wash, dry and save print for a later toning session which includes the second fix. If 30 seconds in stronger fix would be enough time for that workflow, I could try that, but I'm thinking, since there's an intermediate wash step, that maybe even the full 60 seconds for bath #1, wash and dry, then another full 60 seconds in bath #2 would still be able to take full advantage of the reduced wash time, since the print is basically well-washed before fix #2 and, therefore, the 60-second fix would still prevent fixer from soaking into the paper base and getting stuck there.

Does that sound reasonable to you?

TIA,

Doremus

[Michael R]

I would say as long as the fixer relatively fresh, and you do a full wash sequence, then repeating a 60s fix afterward is like starting over so the subsequent wash procedure should be as efficient. If you instead want to use 30s fix times before storage I’d recommend testing to make sure the fix is complete. The Ilford optimum permanence/archival sequence relies on the fixer being fresh and less loaded down with silver-thiosulfate complexes which is why Ilford’s recommended fixer capacity is reduced. In any case testing is the failsafe.

Unfortunately I can’t offer any practical advice from personal experience. I’ve always just fixed once and washed. If I am toning with selenium at a later date I don’t re-fix the print.

[jnantz]

Hi there
i am trying to asses the best formula for fixing and washing FB papers , especially considering the idea of toning and using a hot press to flatten the prints ...

i have been reading few different theories regarding the use for alkaline fixer vs non alkaline Fixer / water stop or acid stop / hypo wash or no hypo wash ....mainly related to the idea of toning and even using a hot press to flatten the print and even about using wetting agent if using a Print dryer (hot plate ones) ...and read about perhaps even using a hardener fixer if going to flatten hot press... ) and off course washing times would differ depending on which fixer ( seems like alkaline fixer require no stop bath ( just water ) and shorter times ?

so i would like to ask your experience/preferences about this in order to understand if the apparently easier/convenient formula : water stop- alkaline fixer (TF4 or TF5 ?)- no hypo - 30 min wash would have any downside regarding toning , hot press , drying ... or any downside at all ....

thank you !

g

hi g

I use water instead of stop bath, I use sprint speed fixer and perma wash. I don't tone anything and I use the same developer for both film and prints.

other people have more complex and more simple ways of doing these things and everyone has a variety of reasons (scientific and personal preference) for whatever it is they are doing, every once in a while I use sodium hypo sulfate (sodium thiosulfate ) instead of speed fixer, only when I am doing caffenol direct positives .. the perma wash and developer are the same as I normally use ...

good luck with your process!
John

[Doremus Scudder]

I would say as long as the fixer relatively fresh, and you do a full wash sequence, then repeating a 60s fix afterward is like starting over so the subsequent wash procedure should be as efficient. If you instead want to use 30s fix times before storage I’d recommend testing to make sure the fix is complete. The Ilford optimum permanence/archival sequence relies on the fixer being fresh and less loaded down with silver-thiosulfate complexes which is why Ilford’s recommended fixer capacity is reduced. In any case testing is the failsafe.

Unfortunately I can’t offer any practical advice from personal experience. I’ve always just fixed once and washed. If I am toning with selenium at a later date I don’t re-fix the print.

Thanks Michael,

That's about what I had surmised, but it's reassuring to have your take on it as well. For the time being, I'll likely stick to my tried-and-true procedure, but if, or rather, when water issues become more important, then I'll have an alternate that uses less water. Testing for residual silver is easy if you've got a bottle of selenium toner sitting around

Best,

Doremus

[diagonale-du-flou]

Hi there

so i would like to ask your experience/preferences about this in order to understand if the apparently easier/convenient formula : water stop- alkaline fixer (TF4 or TF5 ?)- no hypo - 30 min wash would have any downside regarding toning , hot press , drying ... or any downside at all ....

thank you !

g

I use alkaline fixer after an acidic stop bath, folllowed by 3min in wash aid. After a vigorous rinsing in running water, 30 minutes of washing seems to be enough.
As a fixer I use a product from W. Moersch, ATS alkaline rapid fixer (https://www.moersch-photochemie.de/e...bad-alkalisch/), but I'm not sure you can find these products in USA...
three advantages for me with this fixer :
- no odor because there's no ammonia in the formula
- shorter washing time
- no risk of staining during selenium toning because there's no acid residue in the paper

You can also go directly from fixer to selenium...

[tgtaylor]

I've been using TF-5 since it came out but as soon as the current supply is depleted, I'm going to try Kodak F-24 substituting the sodium bisulfite with citric acid to eliminate the "fixer odor." Switching to F-24 will eliminate fixer storage as I can mix as I go.

[Doremus Scudder]

I've been using TF-5 since it came out but as soon as the current supply is depleted, I'm going to try Kodak F-24 substituting the sodium bisulfite with citric acid to eliminate the "fixer odor." Switching to F-24 will eliminate fixer storage as I can mix as I go.

F-24 is indeed easy to mix. Just keep in mind that it is not a rapid fixer and, therefore, may not fix T-Max and Delta films adequately.

Doremus