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Thread: "True film speed" vs just developing the film more?

  1. #181
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: "True film speed" vs just developing the film more?

    Do you practice that methodology with an 8x10 camera? In which case, you must need to have an elephant and mahout as assistants carrying your motorized 8x10 with all the necessary multitude of holders, and a commensurate monster budget. In those rather few cases I carried Velvia, it was likely a single holder for an entire trip. I had more versatile films, including black and white in the other holders. I could be a bit more generous in 4x5. But I necessarily allowed only one shot per subject. No room for error, no room for guessing, no opportunity to bracket, even if the light held steady. And what I've discovered is that a sniper with a single bullet is far more likely to hit a significant target than some machine-gunner who aims his gun all over the place. Even as a kid owning nothing more than an early 35mm Pentax with a single lens and rather crude externally coupled meter, I learned to do it right the first time on Kodachrome. Almost never an off exposure. Velvia was easy by comparison. But that doesn't mean Velvia is a versatile film. It has its legitimate usages. But most people simply want M&M brightly flavored candy, so that's why they use it. Galen was a nice guy just trying to make an honest living which supported his addiction to expeditions. I understand that. But being highly familiar with real mountain light, it's easy for me to smell something off which has been doctored up to exploit marketable stereotypes of natural beauty. Why gild the lily, or worse, dip it in melted M&M sauce? You're not going to improve it - you just cheapen that way! Burn all your damn postcards and cutesy nature calendars, leave your fancy cameras behind, and for once just sit there and watch what the light does, hour after hour in the mountains. Bathe in it, relish it. Maybe then you'll understand why I don't like hokey imitations. .... But no, I was not necessarily speaking of that specific cover image of Galen's, but of piles of them. Pretty much the same story. He had trouble with subject range, and depended too much on TTL metering. Again, I understand - it's kinda hard to use a real spot meter hanging from a rope. I doubt he even owned one. And sorry if I step on another set of toes; but more often than not, I regard resorting to grad filters as a default for not mastering the light to film ratio to begin with. Yeah, in color transparency work, where I began, the perimeter of the ball court tends to be significantly smaller than with black and white film. But in either case, it's essential to learn where those boundaries are. And that's why I'm perfectly comfortable going down to Zone I or even Zone 0 with certain black and white films, placing the beginning of shadow gradation way down there - because I had been routinely metering even more tricky things all along for sake of color chrome film. Don't tell me it can't be predictably done.

  2. #182

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    Re: "True film speed" vs just developing the film more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    Do you practice that methodology with an 8x10 camera?
    No... but when learning how a film/process works I make bracketings with same film in 35mm... In particular I learned to meter/expose well velvia with 35mm bracketings. Characteristic curve in the velvia datasheet was wery good to understand the film, but also bracketings were essential to learn.

    Also, while I may bracket a 35mm velvia shot, I don't bracket velvia sheets, instead I spend more time metering accurately. I guess that I'm not alone in that...

    I've only one of the Rowell's books, here with with my very first 8x10 contact copy:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Images are awesome to me, but also I've read all the book text, and I've to say that I learned a lot from that book.

  3. #183

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    Re: "True film speed" vs just developing the film more?

    A friend of Galen Rowell's taught me snow skills. I never met Galen but I would have liked to. I read his articles and switched from Kodachrome to Velvia because of him. I never saw his slides. I have plenty of my own 35mm Velvia slides to live with. I know what they can do. Big pictures can be made from them. My buddy also shot Velvia, and he has a very nice large printed shot of his own on his living room wall.

    When I took a nature photography business workshop in the late '80s I got to see some 4x5 color slides by William Neill. That was one of the moments when I decided to look into 4x5, as the saying goes... if two people walk into an editor's office with the same picture... the largest format is the one that will make the sale.

    I respect those who want to take advantage of the inflection point, but it's probably clear by now that I prefer to be up on the straight line, and I use all this testing to determine an appropriate development time so I can print on my favorite paper, Galerie 2 or 3. And if I want to push the limits or be creative, I can do that too.

  4. #184

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    Re: "True film speed" vs just developing the film more?

    About Rowell, it also has to be said that while ND graded filters had a limited use since the early twentieth century, he popularized the use of that resource in modern times.

  5. #185
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: "True film speed" vs just developing the film more?

    Well, he certainly popularized the abuse of them.

  6. #186

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    Re: "True film speed" vs just developing the film more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    Well, he certainly popularized the abuse of them.
    Well, what it's clear is that since then many nature photographers use that technique. Use or abuse, I'm not who would say it, to me this is about free people's personal preferences.

    Rowell was clearly influential in the way high mountain photography changed, of course you are free to like or not his way, and to say it... But he was clearly influential, this is for sure.

  7. #187
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: "True film speed" vs just developing the film more?

    He might have been a transient influence among amateur wannabee snapshooters and ski poster types, but he doesn't amount to a drop in the bucket if one considers all the serious mountain photography done beforehand, which has recognized worth and not just cutesy sugar-coated appeal. Nobody around here, right in his own back yard, took him seriously as a photographer, but did pester him like mosquitoes asking advice about their own expeditions, which he was competent to answer if he had to. I consider him an artistic zero, and rather unimpressive technically too, though that doesn't prevent me from appreciating the kind of Natl-Geo-ish journalistic applications his shots were appropriate for. I wouldn't have personally given him five bucks for any of them. Of course, I realize it's kinda rude to speak about someone who's no longer around and can't defend their reputation; but I don't think he even really cared about it except for its commercial utility. That whole "big photographer" thing was just an act, a persona. He actually seemed to be a bit embarrassed when around serious photographers - kinda humble in person in that respect. All the braggadocio in his articles was just part of commercial self-promotion. It only worked to a partial extent. His photography wasn't anywhere near as lucrative as some of him imitators imagine. He had other sources of financing. But if you like it, fine. I just think his kind of photography sets the bar quite low.

  8. #188

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    Re: "True film speed" vs just developing the film more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    Nobody around here, right in his own back yard, took him seriously as a photographer, but did pester him like mosquitoes asking advice about their own expeditions
    Drew, I'm not interested in rivalities in a back yard, but in the global influence of a photographer.

    Here you have an article by Tim Parkin (a member here, IIRC) and Joe Cornish about Rowell, please take a look, they are praising his work, contribution and influence:

    https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2011/0...-galen-rowell/
    https://web.archive.org/web/20190208...-galen-rowell/

    Drew, I don't say you have to value or not Rowell's work and/or contribution, this is up to you. But you should know that at least this article (by IMHO two prominent Landscape photographers) shows very different opinions than you.

    I agree that he is not a "fine art" LF photographer, but a 35mm SLR adventure photographer. But by no means a photographer is more or less serious because of that.

    So you can opine that Rowell's work is pest, of course, but by no means you can say that everybody here (or around) think the same. I fact if you dig a bit you'll find that remarkable photographers find themselves influenced by Rowell.


    Joe Cornish: "Had he lived, Galen Rowell would by now be 70 years old. That his name still resonates down the years says much for the power of his art. I still remember finding Mountain Light at Stanfords, Covent Garden, on a grey London day in 1986. The colour and compositional invention and energy compelled me to buy, even though £25 was a lot of money for me. Twenty five years ago! I was lucky if I made £100 a week then. I read the text, every word. Several times (I made sure I had my moneys-worth). Along with David Muench's Nature's America, Mountain Light was my main inspirational, practical and conceptual resource for many years after."


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    (Cornish with a graded ND filter)
    Last edited by Pere Casals; 8-Feb-2019 at 08:41.

  9. #189
    Alan Klein's Avatar
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    Re: "True film speed" vs just developing the film more?

    I'm curious of what those who use Velvia do with the film afterwards? Do you print it? How? What issues arise from exposure differences from "perfect"?

    With my 120 Velvia 50 shots, I use to have an outside printer do it. They used C prints back then from an internegative. Now I'm only scanning and posting on the web. So my scanner and post processing programs can play with the exposures (I do bracket the shots when taking as well).

  10. #190

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    Re: "True film speed" vs just developing the film more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Klein View Post
    I'm curious of what those who use Velvia do with the film afterwards? Do you print it? How? What issues arise from exposure differences from "perfect"?

    With my 120 Velvia 50 shots, I use to have an outside printer do it. They used C prints back then from an internegative. Now I'm only scanning and posting on the web. So my scanner and post processing programs can play with the exposures (I do bracket the shots when taking as well).
    Alan, today best bet is scanning and digitally printing on color photopaper with frontier, lambda, lightjet, etc, or the like, if not wanting inkjet.

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