Promoting Pyro Stain on HP5

[Michael Wesik]

If you find that you need to harness your contrast/subject brightness range to a fine point, I would use Pyrocat divided. I've managed to reign in some wicked contrast with that methodology - like 14 stops - for silver printing.

[RodinalDuchamp]

How much stain you get is a property of the film emulsion and the particular staining agent you are using. You can tweak it a little with changes in dilution and time, even agitation methods, but you aren't going to change the inherent characteristics much. Many films (TXP included) exhibit a lot of overall staining. This is not really desirable, as it blocks up the shadows a bit. The goal is to always keep overall staining to a minimum. BPF-200 was notorious for a lot of general stain; TXP is in the middle somewhere, TMY and TMX exhibit much less, and the negatives look much less colored. The stain is there, however. I often shoot TXP and TMY back-to-back in the same holder; two shots per scene. The negatives look markedly different, but they print just fine.

The stain we want is the proportional staining, which means, more silver in the image = more stain too. Ideally, then, the film base and deep shadows should be clear and neutral and the high-density areas should have the most staining. The silver image, however, masks the stain color, so the "ideal" stained negative will not look very green/yellow.

If you think that increased stain somehow has a compensating effect on the highlights (i.e., will keep more detail in them), then you are barking up the wrong tree. More stain = more contrast. The reason staining developers are so good for retaining highlight detail is the curve that results from the combination of silver+stain, which is a bit more shouldered than most curves from non-staining developers. My primary reason for using staining developers is the grain-masking effect of the stain and the edge effects you can get from them.

If you want more stain, you can always bleach and redevelop your negative. I do this routinely when I have the occasional negative that needs more contrast. Use a ferricyanide/bromide rehalogenating bleach and bleach the silver image away completely. If you've developed in a staining developer, all that will remain is the stain (you could compare the actual amount of stain in two different films this way; by bleaching the silver away and then looking only at the stain...). Anyway, after bleaching, redevelop the negative in a staining developer. You'll get the silver image back plus another dose of stain, doubling the amount of proportional stain. This method can be very gratifying for thin negs.

Best,

Doremus

Duly noted, however I still want to experiment with staining - I guess at this point I can start by increasing solution B, temperatures, then testing agitation methods

[RodinalDuchamp]

If you find that you need to harness your contrast/subject brightness range to a fine point, I would use Pyrocat divided. I've managed to reign in some wicked contrast with that methodology - like 14 stops - for silver printing.

I am very interested in this! Do you have any useful links?

[Michael Wesik]

I am very interested in this! Do you have any useful links?

First off, be aware that by increasing Part B, temperature and/or using more aggressive agitation methods you'll also increase the overall density of your negs. Additional stain will inevitably come with more density.

The other thing that can happen with a lot of stain is uneven staining depending on how you process your film. My negs are really - like really, really - stained and I actually presoak my film for 20mins with agitation to remove all the dyes and annhilation layer. It took me years to figure that one out. I process my 8x10 and 11x14 film in tubes - BTZS style - without defect regardless of subject. My agitation method is super aggressive and unorthodox - a mix of rotary in hand with simultaneous shaking - but it works.

Divided Pyrocat is extremely versatile and really amazing for controlling contrast. I use it exclusively for any and all lighting conditions. Some scenes include shadows that ring in at EV4 with highlights at EV16+. The only thing I change is the dilution. The entire process - agitation, time, temperature - stays the same (the latter two of which aren't super critical in that a temp fluctuation of a few degrees doesn't have much of an impact). There's tons of discourse on the subject here as well as APUG.

This is a good intro to the subject: http://www.pyrocat-hd.com/html/TwoBathPyrocat.html

[RodinalDuchamp]

First off, be aware that by increasing Part B, temperature and/or using more aggressive agitation methods you'll also increase the overall density of your negs. Additional stain will inevitably come with more density.

The other thing that can happen with a lot of stain is uneven staining depending on how you process your film. My negs are really - like really, really - stained and I actually presoak my film for 20mins with agitation to remove all the dyes and annhilation layer. It took me years to figure that one out. I process my 8x10 and 11x14 film in tubes - BTZS style - without defect regardless of subject. My agitation method is super aggressive and unorthodox - a mix of rotary in hand with simultaneous shaking - but it works.

Divided Pyrocat is extremely versatile and really amazing for controlling contrast. I use it exclusively for any and all lighting conditions. Some scenes include shadows that ring in at EV4 with highlights at EV16+. The only thing I change is the dilution. The entire process - agitation, time, temperature - stays the same (the latter two of which aren't super critical in that a temp fluctuation of a few degrees doesn't have much of an impact). There's tons of discourse on the subject here as well as APUG.

This is a good intro to the subject: http://www.pyrocat-hd.com/html/TwoBathPyrocat.html

Thank you! I'd love to find out more about your specific process if you are willing to share.

[David Karp]

. . . The only thing I change is the dilution. The entire process - agitation, time, temperature - stays the same . . . .

It would be interesting to know what dilutions you use and in what situations you adjust them. It would also be interesting to know your workflow -- Agitation, time in each bath, temperature.

[Michael Wesik]

Thank you! I'd love to find out more about your specific process if you are willing to share.

Sure thing...

Attached are a few pictures of a the tubes I use. They're made from black PVC. I made the prototypes myself but then had a plastics welder fabricated the caps - the original caps were just a cap glued to a female coupling and they worked just fine. The whole thing is really easy to make. I can give you details on that if you need. The main things are to size the pipe a 1/2 inch longer than the film, sand the inside, and then after it's assembled - meaning the cap, pipe and male coupling - pour acetone in and slowly pour it out. You end up with a finish like glass which allows the neg to move slightly during agitation. You need one tube, two caps and a tightly fitting O Ring.

As far as the process goes, I use the following for 8x10 or 11x14 Tri-X, FP4 and HP5 all shot at 1/2 box speed...

The Set Up:

- two trays: one for "presoak" and one for a dummy neg (of the same size, unprocessed, film but soaked to remove all dyes and annhilation layers)

- fill up the tube to the top with distilled water as "prewet"

- pour out/mix Part A and Part B with distilled water (for 8x10 film I use about 300-350ml and for 11x14 I use about 600ml)...I always add a 3-4 drops of photoflo from an eye dropper into Part A with 8x10 and twice that much for 11x14. It releases the surface tension of the liquid and promotes very even draining in transition from Part A cap to Part B cap. As far as dilutions go, my N dilution is usually between 1+8 and 1+9. I should preface this that I typically split filter print all of my work with multiple filters - 00, 1/2, 2, and 5, for example. So my contrast index is something specific to my printing style. 1+12 gives a contraction of N-1 1/2 to N-2 and 1+15 gives a contraction of about N-3 to N-4. I've gone up to 1+20 in some cases. I've also gone to 1+3 for expansion which is about as strong as you can take this developer. Any stronger and the viscosity is such that you get uneven development and yes, that's a lot of chemistry. Generally speaking, I'm aiming for a neg with as much printable information as possible at the right contrast index. I don't really care about density as long as my highlights aren't denser than log 2.6....otherwise it's just time.

- I also have a large water bath - essentially a big tray full of water that fits the whole assembled pipe - for straight rotary processing in Part A

*Note - I keep all the water at about room temperature and minor fluctuations have very little, if any affect, on the final density/contrast

- then all your typical trays, 1/4 strength acid stop back, fix, etc...

The Process:

- presoak for 20mins with agitation 5-10sec per min (after which all the dyes and annhilation layer should be gone)...when developing in a tube or where your film is against/touching a surface, sometimes the annhilation layer comes off at different rates which affects staining.

- when complete, pick up the neg from the presoak as well as the dummy neg and place the live neg in front of the dummy neg, cradle them together like a taco, and insert both into the tube...after which you can remove the dummy neg by sliding it out slowly. This is by far the best way to do a wet transfer of film into a tube because the dummy neg protects it.

- the "prewet" water in the tube is poured out slowly and then the tube is turned upside down and screwed into the Part A cap.

- at this point I turn on the lights - they're rigged up to a foot switch and a construction light hanging from a screw in the ceiling

- the tube is turned over and placed directly into the water bath where normal rotary agitation is conducted for a 6 mins...I switch directions every minute and spin the tube at about 2-3 rotations per second...not fast...as slow as it takes rotate it constantly. Switching directions helps mitigate the build up of edge density on one side of the film that's exacerbated by the photoflo. You can actually go longer in Part A if you want. This is purely to soak up Part A into the emulsion. No development occurs at this point.

- after this, the tube is then turned upside down, the Part A cap is unscrewed and the tube is transferred and screwed into the Part B cap where the tube is turned over immediately to commence agitation by doing the following...I'll try to upload a video clip but imagine holding the tube in front of you so that it's parallel to the floor (on it's side...horizontal)...you start doing gentle shakes (about 2 per second) while rotating the tube slowly in your hands at one full rotation per 30sec. Being Canadian, I used some hockey tape on the end/bottom for extra grip. The idea is to circulate the chemistry somewhat aggressively but also completely randomly to promote even development...the slow in-hand rotation ensures that Part B is distributed to the back of the film. In fact, by the end one corner of the neg has always migrated to the edge of the tube. This is done for 6 mins. You could go shorter but I wouldn't go shorter than 3 mins. You want the emulsion to fully harden. Increasing or decreasing time in Part B also affects the overall density. More time means more density, contrast is held constant because it's dictated by the remaining Part A in the emulsion.

- the tube is then turned upside down, unscrewed from the Part B cap, and inserted immediately into the water bath that was used for the Part A rotary. I rotate it around a little and use this as a water stop. Some people like to use a water stop to promote edge effects. I've never felt that it's worth it, personally. I actually found that pouring water into the tube for a water stop caused uneven staining/development because some areas around the back of the film had pockets of Part B and continued to accumulate stain during the water stop.

- the neg is then removed from the tube and placed in 1/4 strength stop, the fix for 6-8 mins, then rinse, hypoclear for a few mins, was for 20-30mins then into fresh photoflo and hang to dry

That's pretty much what I do...I hope it reads ok...


Attachment 161166

Attachment 161167

[David Karp]

Thank you Michael.

[Michael Wesik]

Thank you Michael.

No prob...if I can figure out a way of attaching a vid clip of the agitation method I'll get that up too.

[RodinalDuchamp]

Sure thing...

Attached are a few pictures of a the tubes I use. They're made from black PVC. I made the prototypes myself but then had a plastics welder fabricated the caps - the original caps were just a cap glued to a female coupling and they worked just fine. The whole thing is really easy to make. I can give you details on that if you need. The main things are to size the pipe a 1/2 inch longer than the film, sand the inside, and then after it's assembled - meaning the cap, pipe and male coupling - pour acetone in and slowly pour it out. You end up with a finish like glass which allows the neg to move slightly during agitation. You need one tube, two caps and a tightly fitting O Ring.

As far as the process goes, I use the following for 8x10 or 11x14 Tri-X, FP4 and HP5 all shot at 1/2 box speed...

The Set Up:

- two trays: one for "presoak" and one for a dummy neg (of the same size, unprocessed, film but soaked to remove all dyes and annhilation layers)

- fill up the tube to the top with distilled water as "prewet"

- pour out/mix Part A and Part B with distilled water (for 8x10 film I use about 300-350ml and for 11x14 I use about 600ml)...I always add a 3-4 drops of photoflo from an eye dropper into Part A with 8x10 and twice that much for 11x14. It releases the surface tension of the liquid and promotes very even draining in transition from Part A cap to Part B cap. As far as dilutions go, my N dilution is usually between 1+8 and 1+9. I should preface this that I typically split filter print all of my work with multiple filters - 00, 1/2, 2, and 5, for example. So my contrast index is something specific to my printing style. 1+12 gives a contraction of N-1 1/2 to N-2 and 1+15 gives a contraction of about N-3 to N-4. I've gone up to 1+20 in some cases. I've also gone to 1+3 for expansion which is about as strong as you can take this developer. Any stronger and the viscosity is such that you get uneven development and yes, that's a lot of chemistry. Generally speaking, I'm aiming for a neg with as much printable information as possible at the right contrast index. I don't really care about density as long as my highlights aren't denser than log 2.6....otherwise it's just time.

- I also have a large water bath - essentially a big tray full of water that fits the whole assembled pipe - for straight rotary processing in Part A

*Note - I keep all the water at about room temperature and minor fluctuations have very little, if any affect, on the final density/contrast

- then all your typical trays, 1/4 strength acid stop back, fix, etc...

The Process:

- presoak for 20mins with agitation 5-10sec per min (after which all the dyes and annhilation layer should be gone)...when developing in a tube or where your film is against/touching a surface, sometimes the annhilation layer comes off at different rates which affects staining.

- when complete, pick up the neg from the presoak as well as the dummy neg and place the live neg in front of the dummy neg, cradle them together like a taco, and insert both into the tube...after which you can remove the dummy neg by sliding it out slowly. This is by far the best way to do a wet transfer of film into a tube because the dummy neg protects it.

- the "prewet" water in the tube is poured out slowly and then the tube is turned upside down and screwed into the Part A cap.

- at this point I turn on the lights - they're rigged up to a foot switch and a construction light hanging from a screw in the ceiling

- the tube is turned over and placed directly into the water bath where normal rotary agitation is conducted for a 6 mins...I switch directions every minute and spin the tube at about 2-3 rotations per second...not fast...as slow as it takes rotate it constantly. Switching directions helps mitigate the build up of edge density on one side of the film that's exacerbated by the photoflo. You can actually go longer in Part A if you want. This is purely to soak up Part A into the emulsion. No development occurs at this point.

- after this, the tube is then turned upside down, the Part A cap is unscrewed and the tube is transferred and screwed into the Part B cap where the tube is turned over immediately to commence agitation by doing the following...I'll try to upload a video clip but imagine holding the tube in front of you so that it's parallel to the floor (on it's side...horizontal)...you start doing gentle shakes (about 2 per second) while rotating the tube slowly in your hands at one full rotation per 30sec. Being Canadian, I used some hockey tape on the end/bottom for extra grip. The idea is to circulate the chemistry somewhat aggressively but also completely randomly to promote even development...the slow in-hand rotation ensures that Part B is distributed to the back of the film. In fact, by the end one corner of the neg has always migrated to the edge of the tube. This is done for 6 mins. You could go shorter but I wouldn't go shorter than 3 mins. You want the emulsion to fully harden. Increasing or decreasing time in Part B also affects the overall density. More time means more density, contrast is held constant because it's dictated by the remaining Part A in the emulsion.

- the tube is then turned upside down, unscrewed from the Part B cap, and inserted immediately into the water bath that was used for the Part A rotary. I rotate it around a little and use this as a water stop. Some people like to use a water stop to promote edge effects. I've never felt that it's worth it, personally. I actually found that pouring water into the tube for a water stop caused uneven staining/development because some areas around the back of the film had pockets of Part B and continued to accumulate stain during the water stop.

- the neg is then removed from the tube and placed in 1/4 strength stop, the fix for 6-8 mins, then rinse, hypoclear for a few mins, was for 20-30mins then into fresh photoflo and hang to dry

That's pretty much what I do...I hope it reads ok...


Attachment 161166

Attachment 161167

Thank you for taking the time to write that out!