Special order Eastman Double-X in 4x5 sheets.

[Kodachrome25]

Stoned, you did your part, Keith did his part, Kodak did their part and it did not work. Maybe it came close, maybe not. I think you are all to be commended for the effort though, especially post C-11 in the year 2014 when ten years ago people swore <ALL> film would be gone...

There is no one to blame, no forensics or rants will do anyone any good....Puff, Puff, Give...

[StoneNYC]

Stoned, you did your part, Keith did his part, Kodak did their part and it did not work. Maybe it came close, maybe not. I think you are all to be commended for the effort though, especially post C-11 in the year 2014 when ten years ago people swore <ALL> film would be gone...

There is no one to blame, no forensics or rants will do anyone any good....Puff, Puff, Give...

+1

[jnantz]

this totally an interesting thread no reason to lock it yet.
kodak have not told anything. they told K canham something and he relayed it to us. what actually happened or what reasoning was is up for grabs.
how do you know anyone is or isent part of the pre order? like this thread the concept of a special order of film does not belong to you.

hi koh303
i told stone in the beginning i haven't 600$ or 300$ to spend on a magic-film
(even if fairies whispered in my ear what to photograph and processed the film afterwards )
i'm more of a 10years expired, process in coffee kind of person anyways, im not really into magic, smoke and mirrors and glowing highlights.
and like you, im not really sure why my not ordering anything has any bearing on if i am allowed to post in a thread in an open forum ..

===
seeing allaris + eastman kodak don't mind special orders, and their new era ...
maybe if they did a special run of a film that is KNOWN to be a LF film, and doesn't require additional "dealing with/ magic at their end"
it might work the next time. ( im thinking tri x / ortho, royal pan or superxx or something else with a long long history ) ...
seeing this experience showed there are new ways to get a special order done, smaller minimums, people on board, and their money in the bank.
i have a feeling if another special run was started up ( of a film that was known as a sheet film ) it wouldn't cost 600$ for 100 sheets ...
but around what people are used to paying for tri , tmax or whatever .. so even if the minimum order was 100s of 100sheet boxes, it wouldn't be hard to fill ...

so for a draft this worked, but drafts are always edited before it is a final paper ..

running poll ( format + emulsion)?
crowd sourcing/kickstarter?
and a list of what emulsions allaris would be willing to work with?

[koh303]

he's eroding the thread by spreading rumor as fact. That's all, it's annoying.

Coming from Stone this is very ironic.

[vinny]

Coming from Stone this is very ironic.

naw!

[AuditorOne]

seeing allaris + eastman kodak don't mind special orders, and their new era ...
maybe if they did a special run of a film that is KNOWN to be a LF film, and doesn't require additional "dealing with/ magic at their end"
it might work the next time. ( im thinking tri x / ortho, royal pan or superxx or something else with a long long history ) ...
seeing this experience showed there are new ways to get a special order done, smaller minimums, people on board, and their money in the bank.
i have a feeling if another special run was started up ( of a film that was known as a sheet film ) it wouldn't cost 600$ for 100 sheets ...
but around what people are used to paying for tri , tmax or whatever .. so even if the minimum order was 100s of 100sheet boxes, it wouldn't be hard to fill ...

so for a draft this worked, but drafts are always edited before it is a final paper ..

running poll ( format + emulsion)?
crowd sourcing/kickstarter?
and a list of what emulsions allaris would be willing to work with?

I would support this. I am firmly in favor of developing solutions that work in today's market. I believe Ilford has been showing us the way on this for some time with their annual special film orders. It would be nice if Kodak would consider a similar process once every year or two where there are some good emulsions available for purchase. A minimum would need to be met and then Kodak Alaris can move forward knowing they have a pre-determined market.

We need to continue to explore these ideas because it may turn out to be one of the only ways we are able to ever get some of these emulsions and film sizes. Otherwise we are left with spit in one hand, hope in the other...and we already know how that ends up.

[Brian C. Miller]

There is a big difference between cutting a pre-existing film, and coating an old emulsion. In this case, Kodak determined that there would be too much waste in their current cutting process for fulfilling the LF order. Yes, someone at Kodak could have done the math beforehand and determined that the minimum order would be X feet of film from the master roll. (I don't know if Eastman-Kodak or Kodak-Alaris is the one who cuts the rolls.) However, we do know that they will do it for $75,000.

Coating an emulsion is not done lightly. Has the emulsion been previously coated on their current machines? Does anybody remember how to make the emulsion? Kodak has previously been in the position where one of the key people was out on vacation, and a new emulsion couldn't be mixed until he got back.

As for interest, take a look at the number of responders to this order, and the number of people who have pledged support to the New55 Kickstarter project. Not many! Surely not enough for Kodak to coat a master roll. Remember, that's over a mile of film, and the process might have to be redeveloped. If $75,000 is too much, how can Kodak expect to find support for $1 million or more it will ask to cover the process? I haven't heard of any millionaires or Saudi princes having an LF hobby.

The Ilford custom order is just for cutting, not coating. Nobody has ponied up the money to get the R&D done for SFX on sheet film, and I doubt it will ever be done.

The solution has to work for both the manufacturer and the consumer. If it doesn't work for the manufacturer, it definitely won't be done.

[csxcnj]

There is a big difference between cutting a pre-existing film, and coating an old emulsion. In this case, Kodak determined that there would be too much waste in their current cutting process for fulfilling the LF order. Yes, someone at Kodak could have done the math beforehand and determined that the minimum order would be X feet of film from the master roll. (I don't know if Eastman-Kodak or Kodak-Alaris is the one who cuts the rolls.) However, we do know that they will do it for $75,000.

Coating an emulsion is not done lightly. Has the emulsion been previously coated on their current machines? Does anybody remember how to make the emulsion? Kodak has previously been in the position where one of the key people was out on vacation, and a new emulsion couldn't be mixed until he got back.

As for interest, take a look at the number of responders to this order, and the number of people who have pledged support to the New55 Kickstarter project. Not many! Surely not enough for Kodak to coat a master roll. Remember, that's over a mile of film, and the process might have to be redeveloped. If $75,000 is too much, how can Kodak expect to find support for $1 million or more it will ask to cover the process? I haven't heard of any millionaires or Saudi princes having an LF hobby.

The Ilford custom order is just for cutting, not coating. Nobody has ponied up the money to get the R&D done for SFX on sheet film, and I doubt it will ever be done.

The solution has to work for both the manufacturer and the consumer. If it doesn't work for the manufacturer, it definitely won't be done.

I might be remembering it wrong, but I believe this was to cut sheets from an ALREADY coated master roll. Stone?

[Oren Grad]

I believe Ilford has been showing us the way on this for some time with their annual special film orders. It would be nice if Kodak would consider a similar process once every year or two where there are some good emulsions available for purchase. A minimum would need to be met and then Kodak Alaris can move forward knowing they have a pre-determined market.

Harman (Ilford) does not require a minimum for orders during the special order period, only for orders made outside of it. In the earliest years of the special order program they tried to, and the program was on the verge of dying for lack of sufficient orders. In response to concerns expressed by the community the Harman directors then made a decision to cut any orders received under the program, regardless of quantity. They have continued to do so each year since then, although there are no guarantees that they will always be able to do so. In effect, they are shouldering the cost of catering to small-time users of non-stock sizes as a gesture of goodwill to the community. In fact, for the special order program as a whole, including the sizes that sell in somewhat larger quantities, they are likely making little or no profit. This is extraordinary, and one of the important reasons why they deserve our support. But this approach cannot realistically be expected from every vendor.

[angusparker]

Harman (Ilford) does not require a minimum for orders during the special order period, only for orders made outside of it. In the earliest years of the special order program they tried to, and the program was on the verge of dying for lack of sufficient orders. In response to concerns expressed by the community the Harman directors then made a decision to cut any orders received under the program, regardless of quantity. They have continued to do so each year since then, although there are no guarantees that they will always be able to do so. In effect, they are shouldering the cost of catering to small-time users of non-stock sizes as a gesture of goodwill to the community. In fact, for the special order program as a whole, including the sizes that sell in somewhat larger quantities, they are likely making little or no profit. This is extraordinary, and one of the important reasons why they deserve our support. But this approach cannot realistically be expected from every vendor.

Let's give a cheer to Ilford. I'm going in on the special orders this year for the first time. Can't wait to see the negatives!