Chamonix, Shen Hao, or other for 4x5?

[tigger_six]

Hello. I am considering moving up to 4x5 from MF for reasons of
negative size, slowing down, being able to develop negatives individually
and having access to a large array of old lenses. I will be using it
mostly for landscapes and portraits.

Getting a complete set of hardware will be a long process, so I want to make as few
mistakes along as possible. (I need to get absolutely everything, nothing I have
save for filters and cable release will work with larger than 6x7 negatives.) So to
start with, I want to inquire about camera choice. Weight is a significant factor for me,
as are movements.

I was considering getting a chamonix 45 (perhaps the new f-1? that is a bit too concrete for now).
Is that a wise choice? I've seen there are similar cameras by shen hao but those seem much
more confusing as there is a much wider selection of models. Are there other manufacturers outside of China?
I have no problems with buying used gear, but it seems to me that finding a used 4x5 Chamonix is
rare, I don't think I've seen a single one on ebay so far. Is there something I should keep in mind
when buying a camera? I have literally no experience with large format.

I know this topic must have been beaten to death but I cannot find any relevant but new enough threads. I suppose
the design of the "new" cameras from asia changed in the past few years so old threads aren't fully relevant anymore.

[Woodturner-fran]

Well, I'm pretty new to 4x5 - and like you would have made the move from MF for all the reasons you listed.

I bought a 045N-2 just before Christmas and am thrilled with it. Its a joy to use, very light and easy to set up/take down. That's important as you will end up doing that for every shot you take - it is these repetitive things that make the camera nice to use or not. I didn't appreciate that at first, and was thinking of a sinar F1 or similar. I was lucky enough to get some good advice from a LF friend who gently guided me towards a camera like the chamonix. The Shen Hao/Ebony etc look similar.

Dealing with Hugo was very simple (not insignificant as you are sending ~€700 on trust) and the camera arrived safe and sound a few weeks later. I had only seen pictures online before this - and the camera looks better in the flesh than the pics. Fit and finish is very good indeed.

I bought secondhand lenses too, a symmar S 150mm and a fujinon 250mm. They are weighty enough items on their own! I bought 2nd hand DDS anywhere I could. I also invested in a decent bag that I can fit all my stuff in so when I get a chance to head out, I can just grab the bag and go.

Like you, I looked for a 2nd hand chamonix for a while, but absolutely nothing came up. I decided to go for a new one even though it was outside my budget at the time.


Fran

[Larry Gebhardt]

I traded my Shen Hao HZX in to buy a Chamonix 045N. I found a used one on this forum in very good condition. For the most part I am very happy with the decision. My only gripe, and it's minor, is I don't like needing to screw the front standard into the track. Especially when changing lenses requires you to move it to a new spot. The camera is rigid, light weight, has plenty of movements, and is easy to adjust. My camera is one of the first versions, and it came with the fresnel in front of the ground glass. I did have a few shots ruined because of this, and quite a few that won't enlarge as much as they otherwise could, because of this. It was easy to fix and test once I became aware of the problem. The newer cameras have been fixed at the factory.

Also, the bellows are not opaque to infrared film. So I need to use the bag bellows from my Shen Hao when I shoot IR film. Just something to be aware of if you plan on shooting IR.

I think you would be very happy with the Chamonix. There are also a ton of other great cameras out there. I can attest that Canham makes a good camera and his service is second to none. If you think you may want to go to 5x7 you may want to look at his 4x5 traditional. It's heavier than the Chamonix, but has more extension for longer lenses.

[John Kasaian]

Which lens do you intend to use? Make sure your new camera has the bellows to handle the lens.
Do you want a camera for hiking? If so you may prefer a field camera.
Sorting out the differences between Chinese wooden 4x5 cameras sounds daunting---try handling as many of the models as possible before hand and see which feels more intuitive to you.
If you can't do that, look at the pictures and get the one that you can best imagine yourself shooting.
Have fun!

[tigger_six]

Thanks for the replies!

Which lens do you intend to use? Make sure your new camera has the bellows to handle the lens.
Do you want a camera for hiking? If so you may prefer a field camera.

Yes, I want to hike with it. Isn't the Chamonix a field camera? As for lenses, I don't know yet but perhaps a 90/160/300? Is there a way to calculate the required belows extension? (I'd expect it would be focal length * some constant close to 1)

Well, I'm pretty new to 4x5 - and like you would have made the move from MF for all the reasons you listed.

I bought a 045N-2 just before Christmas and am thrilled with it. Its a joy to use, very light and easy to set up/take down. That's important as you will end up doing that for every shot you take - it is these repetitive things that make the camera nice to use or not. I didn't appreciate that at first, and was thinking of a sinar F1 or similar. I was lucky enough to get some good advice from a LF friend who gently guided me towards a camera like the chamonix. The Shen Hao/Ebony etc look similar.

Dealing with Hugo was very simple (not insignificant as you are sending ~€700 on trust) and the camera arrived safe and sound a few weeks later. I had only seen pictures online before this - and the camera looks better in the flesh than the pics. Fit and finish is very good indeed.

Thanks for the reassurance! Yes, I'd be a bit worried about sending the money with a bank transfer...

I traded my Shen Hao HZX in to buy a Chamonix 045N. I found a used one on this forum in very good condition. For the most part I am very happy with the decision. My only gripe, and it's minor, is I don't like needing to screw the front standard into the track. Especially when changing lenses requires you to move it to a new spot.

The front slides, right? So I need to move it only if I need to focus very close or change to a very different lens? How do other cameras implement this? They have a larger sliding window?

Also, the bellows are not opaque to infrared film. So I need to use the bag bellows from my Shen Hao when I shoot IR film. Just something to be aware of if you plan on shooting IR.

I do plan to, so that's quite useful..

I think you would be very happy with the Chamonix. There are also a ton of other great cameras out there. I can attest that Canham makes a good camera and his service is second to none. If you think you may want to go to 5x7 you may want to look at his 4x5 traditional. It's heavier than the Chamonix, but has more extension for longer lenses.

Maximum bellows extension of 395mm would mean that if I put on a 395mm lens I can't focus closer than infinity? Are there extensions available?


Edit: Now I realize that my focal length calculations probably only make sense if the lenses are fully symmetrical and I don't know if they really are.

[Preston]

Tigger,

Welcome to the LFPF! Since you are really new to the world of large format photography, I suggest that you read up on the various topics such as terminology, camera types, lenses, foucusing, etc. There is an excellent resource in the Large Format Photography Info pages.

I have a Chamonix 045N-2, and I love it. Considering the quality of the camera, it's truly a bargain for the price. Hugo is great to deal with, and I had no issues what so ever with my purchase or shipping.

Enjoy your large format foray! We're here to help.

--P

[C. D. Keth]

Thanks for the replies!


Yes, I want to hike with it. Isn't the Chamonix a field camera? As for lenses, I don't know yet but perhaps a 90/160/300? Is there a way to calculate the required belows extension? (I'd expect it would be focal length * some constant close to 1)

There is a way to calculate it but it's easier to think in terms of enlargement. Ignoring slight differences in lens design, a 90mm lens with 90mm of bellows out will be focuses at infinity. If you double the bellows you have out to 180mm, the plane in focus will be at 1:1 enlargement. With about 400mm of bellows you can use a 300mm lens pretty comfortably, but not in to 1:1 enlargement.

The front slides, right? So I need to move it only if I need to focus very close or change to a very different lens? How do other cameras implement this? They have a larger sliding window?

The front on a chamonix slides out on a worm gear type system. On that sliding extension, there are 5 different holes very roughly coinciding with infinity focus of a 90mm, 125mm, 150mm, 180mm, and 210mm lenses. If you change lenses and you're in a hurry or you already have some movements applied that you don't want to lose, you can often just turn the focus knob and move the extension. You don't have to unscrew the standard and move it every time. That said, I do try to keep the extension bed as short as possible for greatest possible stability. Other field cameras don't really give you this flexibility. The front standard is at the same place on the bed all the time and you move the bed in or out for everything. Both ways work, chamonix's way may be a tiny bit slower since you have to fiddle with screwing the standard into the bed and making sure the swing, shift, rise and fall are centered.

[Light Guru]

I have a Shen-Hao HZX 4X5-IIA and have been extremely pleased with it. I also looked into the Chamonix 45N2 but ended up going with the Shen-Hao because Chamonix did not have any available ant it was several months out before they would.

Both are fine cameras.

[tigger_six]

I sent an email to Hugo then, at least to ask how long are the waiting times. I have two more questions:
1) Development- how well does the Mod54 work? I have heard about (and seen) problems with uneven development with 4x5, does Mod54 and other tank-based daylight development solve them? I can't develop in trays as I have light in my bathroom and I prefer to do it home rather
than go to darkroom which is rather far away.

2) Film loading. If I understand correctly, I have to load film into holders in darkness (i.e. changing bag). Does that mean that I have to have as many holders as I want to shoot and if I run out I'm done? What if I go on a holiday? I suppose people swap exposed film for fresh and store it somehow? How?

[Light Guru]

I use the Mod54 myself you just need to practice loading the holder several times.

Uneven development can happen with just about any development method if you don't do it right. The most common development problem with the mod54 is the film coming out of its slot and touching another piece.

Your going to want to get a large film changing tent that you can use to load an unload your film holders in.