Guidance request - Sinar models, LF dumb questions, other opinions

[rdenney]

1. For my described use cases...

First, thanks for laying our your use cases.

Answers to your questions, using your numbers, to supplement what others have written:

1. All three have been used in all of your use cases. But I agree with the notion that an F2 would be easier in the studio than a P in the field. The big difference with the P is not so much the asymmetric movements, but rather that the movements are gear-driven, versus the friction movements on the F series cameras. That makes the F series cameras lighter and more compact, but with less repeatability and a little less rigidity. The main difference between the F+ differs from the F by providing a P-type rail clamp, which is tall. The F2 differs from the F2 in providing a front standard with gear-driven focus and a solid design, versus the loose-link clamp on the F front standard. The later F2 cameras differ from those made in their first year or two by providing separate shift and swing locks, versus the single combined lock on the earlier model. There are smaller differences, but that sums it it up. The C is just a camera with a P rear and an F front. The Norma is the Sinar camera that was made before the F and P cameras were introduced in 1971. It's beautifully made, but they are all old. If you can get one in wonderful working condition, it's a joy to use. It will be priced about the same as an F2. I use an F2 myself, and find it a joy to use in the field. My previous camera, which I used for 20 years, was a Cambo SC. Very nice and functional, but I never thanked myself for buying it the way I have the F2.

2. Most modern lenses use Copal or Compur shutters made to standard sizes, particularly No. 0, No. 1, and No. 3. Most Sinar boards already have holes sized for one of these, but there are some differences depending on retaining rings. It's best to buy a lens, measure the size opening it needs, and the buy a board with that opening size. Sinars have "international" backs, which is the same thing as Graflok, and will therefore take film holders that use that locking method (which is most roll-film holders), in addition to standard slide-in film holders. Of those, any will work. The standard brands (though made by the same company) are Lisco and Fidelity, but Riteway is another brand. They are all similar and they all work. Toyo made a somewhat better model but they are harder to find. You'll also need a loupe--a plastic 8x will work to start with. And you'll need cable releases. You may already have a suitable tripod, but if you buy a Sinar, start saving for a Sinar tilt-head, which is by far the best head for use with a Sinar camera.

3. DB mounts are for lenses designed to be used with the Sinar Auto-Aperture shutter, which is not related to the use of digital backs. Having access to that shutter is one of the advantages of the Sinar system, but most people starting out just buy lenses in shutters and save the acquisition of an Auto-Aperture shutter for use with barrel lenses later on. The Auto-Aperture shutter mounts on the backside of the front standard, and then the bellows hook to it. They are not that cheap (about $400-500 for one that includes the necessary cables).

4. If you want to switch to digital, everything will be reusable. But cameras that work well with smaller digital backs need very prices movements, because you'll be using shorter lenses to go with that smaller format, and shorter lenses need smaller movements to achieve the same effect. The P would be the choice, but I consider that use case sufficiently different from your other use cases to suggest a separate solution. 4x5 cameras are quite fiddly when used with digital backs, unless they are the specific models designed for them. The view cameras best suited for digital backs derived from smaller-formats in the first place. Given the cost of a digital back (which is into five figures in many cases), the cost of a Linhof M679 or a Sinar P3 doesn't seem so painful. That does not apply to the scanning backs, which are larger and will work fine in a regular 4x5 camera--they were designed to work there. But the scanning back has its own issues. Most would recommend optimizing for film, which is inexpensive to do, at first. By the way, there are no 4x5" digital options that don't require stitching. But we can dream.

5. http://www.skgrimes.com/products/mou...-stock-flanges Remember that all lenses made for the last 25 years at least have used either No. 0, No. 1, or No. 3 shutters.

6. Yes. (DB mounts were a strategy to share one shutter with a range of lenses, but it's a Sinar system only and will limit what you can find if you tie yourself to it).

7. Ansel Adams The Camera, in addition to other suggestions. If you do black and white, also get The Negative and The Print. Scanning renders some of that obsolete, but it's part of any black-and-white film photographer's basic knowledge.

8. KEH.COM is a safe used-equipment supplier. Ebay is sometimes good, but you pays yer nickel and you takes yer chances.

9. Black and white is probably safe for a long time, because it can be produced in small batches by boutique producers. Color film is another matter, and we are all a bit scared about that these days. But color negative film is still (barely) available, and color transparency film is, too. Kodak Ektar is probably the best of the available negative films, and Fuji is still providing E-6 films in 4x5 sheets.

10. Digital has a wonderfully short feedback loop that makes it quite efficient to experiment with lots of things in a short time. But it's also so facile that it can lull us into too much dependence on speed, and not enough on understanding. Yes, what you say will resonate with many here.

Rick "good luck" Denney

[Mike Lease]

I'm also a Sinar owner (F1) and mostly use it outdoors. It is certainly a quality camera and a pleasure to use even if it is one of their lower-end models. If you expect to do most of your landscape work while hiking/backpacking then I'll echo what others have said and suggest looking at a field camera. My F1 isn't all that heavy but it is bulky and not a lot of fun to carry around for several hours - most monorail cameras will be like that. I think it was Edward Weston that said something like "nothing over 100 yards from the car is photogenic" and if that is your outlook as well then there are a lot of reasons to use a monorail camera. I would suggest before selecting Sinar for their extensive system consider what parts and pieces of that system would be useful for you.

I have had reasonably good luck buying equipment on Ebay. The key is doing enough research to know what you should expect to pay for a certain camera, lens, etc. and keep in mind that if it sounds too good to be true it probably is. It pays to be patient and watch items that you are interested in several times to see what they sell for. You should also be willing to walk away from an item if something doesn't seem right about it. The main warning flags for me are when the seller doesn't post enough pictures to get a good idea of the condition of an item or when their description doesn't match what you see in the pictures. I think the biggest risk is in shutters that "work" but the speeds are off so in my mind I've started adding $80-$100 for shutter work to the cost of a lens. Personally, I think most people selling their own gear and real camera stores that sell on Ebay generally are honest and upfront about the condition of what they are selling. I tend to avoid people selling camera collections from estate sales and non-camera stores since their descriptions may be off or inadequate and many of them don't have the experience to fairly assess the condition of a camera or lens and shutter.

Good luck and welcome back to LF. As some people on the forum will say, don't spend too much time worrying about what to get. Buy what you think will work for you and start using it. If it isn't what you want and you paid a fair price for it then you should be able to sell it for what you paid for it.

Mike

[Doc Chevalier]

First, thanks for laying our your use cases.

Answers to your questions, using your numbers, to supplement what others have written:

1. All three have been used in all of your use cases. But I agree with the notion that an F2 would be easier in the studio than a P in the field. The big difference with the P is not so much the asymmetric movements, but rather that the movements are gear-driven, versus the friction movements on the F series cameras. That makes the F series cameras lighter and more compact, but with less repeatability and a little less rigidity. The main difference between the F+ differs from the F by providing a P-type rail clamp, which is tall. The F2 differs from the F2 in providing a front standard with gear-driven focus and a solid design, versus the loose-link clamp on the F front standard. The later F2 cameras differ from those made in their first year or two by providing separate shift and swing locks, versus the single combined lock on the earlier model. There are smaller differences, but that sums it it up. The C is just a camera with a P rear and an F front. The Norma is the Sinar camera that was made before the F and P cameras were introduced in 1971. It's beautifully made, but they are all old. If you can get one in wonderful working condition, it's a joy to use. It will be priced about the same as an F2. I use an F2 myself, and find it a joy to use in the field. My previous camera, which I used for 20 years, was a Cambo SC. Very nice and functional, but I never thanked myself for buying it the way I have the F2.

2. Most modern lenses use Copal or Compur shutters made to standard sizes, particularly No. 0, No. 1, and No. 3. Most Sinar boards already have holes sized for one of these, but there are some differences depending on retaining rings. It's best to buy a lens, measure the size opening it needs, and the buy a board with that opening size. Sinars have "international" backs, which is the same thing as Graflok, and will therefore take film holders that use that locking method (which is most roll-film holders), in addition to standard slide-in film holders. Of those, any will work. The standard brands (though made by the same company) are Lisco and Fidelity, but Riteway is another brand. They are all similar and they all work. Toyo made a somewhat better model but they are harder to find. You'll also need a loupe--a plastic 8x will work to start with. And you'll need cable releases. You may already have a suitable tripod, but if you buy a Sinar, start saving for a Sinar tilt-head, which is by far the best head for use with a Sinar camera.

3. DB mounts are for lenses designed to be used with the Sinar Auto-Aperture shutter, which is not related to the use of digital backs. Having access to that shutter is one of the advantages of the Sinar system, but most people starting out just buy lenses in shutters and save the acquisition of an Auto-Aperture shutter for use with barrel lenses later on. The Auto-Aperture shutter mounts on the backside of the front standard, and then the bellows hook to it. They are not that cheap (about $400-500 for one that includes the necessary cables).

4. If you want to switch to digital, everything will be reusable. But cameras that work well with smaller digital backs need very prices movements, because you'll be using shorter lenses to go with that smaller format, and shorter lenses need smaller movements to achieve the same effect. The P would be the choice, but I consider that use case sufficiently different from your other use cases to suggest a separate solution. 4x5 cameras are quite fiddly when used with digital backs, unless they are the specific models designed for them. The view cameras best suited for digital backs derived from smaller-formats in the first place. Given the cost of a digital back (which is into five figures in many cases), the cost of a Linhof M679 or a Sinar P3 doesn't seem so painful. That does not apply to the scanning backs, which are larger and will work fine in a regular 4x5 camera--they were designed to work there. But the scanning back has its own issues. Most would recommend optimizing for film, which is inexpensive to do, at first. By the way, there are no 4x5" digital options that don't require stitching. But we can dream.

5. http://www.skgrimes.com/products/mou...-stock-flanges Remember that all lenses made for the last 25 years at least have used either No. 0, No. 1, or No. 3 shutters.

6. Yes. (DB mounts were a strategy to share one shutter with a range of lenses, but it's a Sinar system only and will limit what you can find if you tie yourself to it).

7. Ansel Adams The Camera, in addition to other suggestions. If you do black and white, also get The Negative and The Print. Scanning renders some of that obsolete, but it's part of any black-and-white film photographer's basic knowledge.

8. KEH.COM is a safe used-equipment supplier. Ebay is sometimes good, but you pays yer nickel and you takes yer chances.

9. Black and white is probably safe for a long time, because it can be produced in small batches by boutique producers. Color film is another matter, and we are all a bit scared about that these days. But color negative film is still (barely) available, and color transparency film is, too. Kodak Ektar is probably the best of the available negative films, and Fuji is still providing E-6 films in 4x5 sheets.

10. Digital has a wonderfully short feedback loop that makes it quite efficient to experiment with lots of things in a short time. But it's also so facile that it can lull us into too much dependence on speed, and not enough on understanding. Yes, what you say will resonate with many here.

Rick "good luck" Denney

Thanks a ton for your very detailed answers. By building on the other responses, I feel much more informed, to the point where I can make a decision with some level of confidence that I won't be burning money.

Ross

[Doc Chevalier]

I am immensely grateful to all who have responded offering guidance, insight and opinion. I am more convinced than ever that the 4x5 route is one I should be taking and while I will be a novice to the format, believe it will help me get out of the box I am in today. I am very impressed by the generosity of those in this forum and hope that I may be able to pay it back in areas that I do know very well at some point. Thank you all and a very Happy New Year to you!

Ross

[rdenney]

Ross,

Reading back through my post, I made so many typos I'm surprised you could read it. Must've been dozing off while I was typing. Sheesh.

In Answer 1, the F has the short rail clamp, the F+ the tall one. Both use a clamp-over front standard instead of the solid front standard with the geared focus as used on the F2. The early F2 continues the F's single control for swing and shift, while the later ones have separate controls. The F1 (which someone else mentioned) uses the same clamp-over front standard as the F and F+, but otherwise has the same cosmetics as an F2.

And the smaller digital backs use shorter lenses that need precise movements. Yes, they may be pricier, too. (Two possible interpretations of my typo, heh.)

Rick "in case you actually need to know what I wrote" Denney