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Thread: Pyro in the May/June "Photo Techniques"

  1. #31

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    Pyro in the May/June "Photo Techniques"

    First, I apologize in advance for the long post but the issues are fairly complex and I want to make sure to cover those things that I consider most relevant.

    I have not read the Bond article yet but I think it fair to say that reactions to it have been pretty much predictable. Folks who believe in the superiority of pyro developers question Bond's motives and methodology and those who don't see it as proof evident that they were right all along and that all the talk about the superiority of pyro is just myth.

    The original report on this article stated that Bond found PMK and D76 comparison prints to be identical in terms of sharpness and nearly so in terms of tonal range. I would like to respond to those finding, but first three comments.

    1) I will try to be objective in my comments and simply state what I know to be facts and I hope that what I say will be received in that light. It is true that I personally believe pyro developers, specifically Pyrocat-HD, offer a number of advantages in my own work. However, I am not dogmatic about the issue and will willingly concede the use of pyro is not absolutely essential to the production of high quality images, and have so stated at my times in the past.

    2) My approach to evaluating films and developers is based three steps: a) Learn as much as possible about the characteristics of the materials in order to have a global understanding of the issues, b) apply this information with controlled testing, and c) validate or reject the conclusion suggested by laboratory testing with work in the field. It is certainly true that the final photograph is the thing we hang our hats on, but bear in mind that any one test is valid only for the particular set of circumstances of the test so it really pays to understand the issues.

    3) I have no financial interest in promoting the use of pyro. My Pyrocat-HD has been published in print and is available on various web sites, and I am not involved in the distribution commercial marketing of the product.

    OK, let’s discuss tonal issues first. The report on Bond’s article notes that he found that the pyro negative and D76 negative gave almost identical tonal range and “that a little extra work would make them identical.” Sorry, but this is simply not possible with variable contrast papers. The reason is very simple. VC papers have two different coatings, one primarily sensitive to blue light, the other primarily sensitive to green. These two layers have an equal response to non stained negatives. They have a different response to stained negatives for two reasons: 1) the color of the stain affects the two layers differently, and 2) the stain is proportional, most in the areas of high density. This fact provides a kind of compensation that would be virtually impossible to duplicate with non stained negatives. You could in theory duplicate the compensation with non-staining developers for one type of lighting condition, say with subjects of very high contrast, but that compensation would give unacceptable results with subjects of less contrast.

    2) About sharpness. It should come as no big surprise that Bond did note observe any difference in sharpness in his comparison prints since he is after all working with a fairly large negative and any differences in sharpness on the negative would be minimized by the enlargement ratio.

    However, there is no question at all in my mind that some pyro developers give sharper negatives than D76, either straight or 1:1, assuming appropriate development. Whether this increased sharpness on the negative transfers itself to the print is another issue, but since the weakest link in the printing chain is the one that fails first I think it is smart practice to always make the sharpest negative possible, so long as other pictorial qualities (smoothness of tone, grain, etc.) are not put at risk. Assuming your objective is to make prints of maximum sharpness, of course. But you ask on what do I base this contention? The answer is a lot of specific comparison testing of D76 1:1 and Pyrocat-HD with many different films.

    But first, what is sharpness. Sharpness is an impression of image clarity and is influenced by many factors, of which the most important are resolution (lines visible) and acutance (boundary definition). Resolution by itself is not a reliable method for determining image quality since as it turns out some low resolution systems appear to give results that are superior to high resolution systems, but resolution plus acutance provides reliable results. Of course an even better indicator of sharpness in optics and image systems is the modulation transfer function test, or the MTF, but this kind of testing is not available to most of us.

    In practice, however, I have found that in testing both optics and film that when resolution tests are made so that the comparison negatives are of the same contrast the result is in the great majority of situations a fairly reliable indicator of actual sharpness. Persons who understand the complexity of this issue will no doubt find flaws in this admittedly imperfect system of testing but in spite of such objections I will state again that in my own work resolution when comparisons are made at the same contrast appears to be a reasonably reliable method of testing for perceived sharpness.

    The bottom line is this. I can not absolutely prove to you that pyro negatives are sharper than D76 1:1 negatives. What I can do, however, is prove that Pyrocat-HD (and I believe this would also be true for both PMK and WD2D+) gives better resolution, on the order of 10-20 lpm, than D76 1:1. If you don’t believe me test it yourself by doing this.

    1. First, determine what time of development is need to develop the same effective printing contrast with the two comparison developers. You can do this with either a step tablet or with a densitometer. However, if you use a densitometer make sure that you take into consideration the actual difference between what you read and effective printing density.

    2. Next, set up a standard resolution chart and with your camera on a tripod make a series of exposures of the chart, at least four for each developer. You could do this with virtually any camera system. I use a high quality medium format camera for my own testing because of the quality of the optical system but you could also use a large format camera provided that the lens is of sufficiently high quality. For your tests use a film capable of resolving over 100 lpm. In my case I use a 6X9 camera and make eight identical exposures on 120 film at a lens aperture of f/11, focusing on the ground glass.

    3. Develop the film for the times previously determined to give the same effective printing contrast. In my own tests I cut the 120 film into two parts, developing one in D76 1:1, the other in Pyrocat-HD. Be sure to use the same method of agitation with both developers.

    4. When the films are dry examine them at about 40X magnification and calculate the resolving power of the D76 and pyro negative. Since you used the same lens aperture and same roll of film for all of the tests you can be reasonably certain that any difference in resolution observed results from the developer, not the lens or camera system.

    5. If you have access to a very high resolution scanner you could validate your observations by scanning the chart at maximum ppi, enlarging the results, and outputting to a printer. I calculate that this step would require a scanner of about 8000 – 12000 ppi. I tried this with my Epson 4870 but this scanner will not resolve as many lpm as are on the negative.

    In conclusion, I recognize the limitations of this type of testing as they have already been pointed out to me by someone with extensive knowledge in the field. However, I am personally satisfied that the results do provide a reasonably accurate indicator of negative sharpness. The question of final image sharpness is of course another matter and I do not intend to address it here. It is sufficient for me at this point to know that Pyrocat-HD gives me sharper negatives than D76 1:1.

    I welcome and expect reasoned comments on both the methodology and conclusions as herein presented.
    For discussion and information about carbon transfer please visit the carbon group at groups.io
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  2. #32

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    Pyro in the May/June "Photo Techniques"

    Didn't read the article either but were the prints Mr Bond made on VC paper? If so that kinda shoots a pyro neg in the foot a bit. For further reding on the subject I HIGHLY suggest Edge of Darkness by the recently(and very sadly) deceased Barry Thornton. Essentially the PMK pyro masks itself too effectively for use on VC paper. I use PMK on FP4 on graded paper..old school backattcha!! :-)

    CP Goerz.

  3. #33

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    Pyro in the May/June "Photo Techniques"

    Hi Steve – I don’t want to speak too much for Howard, but he’s generally not in the poo-poo business. In fact, he’s quite eager to embrace techniques and technologies that make his pictures better. For instance, he’s a big fan of unsharp masking, which he learned in his sixties. He’s a fair and honest evaluator, and a very competent darkroom technician. If pyro made a significant positive difference in his pictures, he’d be all for it.

    I remain unconvinced about pyro myself, but I’m willing to have my mind changed. Who has done the same test as Howard, exposing the same film to the same subject developing in two different developers? Most of us won’t take that trouble>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Howard is previously on record as stating that pyro offers no advantages over a non-staining developer. He also picked one film and apparently based on a single test states that pyro does not offer any benefit. If he wanted to do a truly objective test he would have sampled other films.

    As for pyro's toxicity I suggest getting it in pre-mixed form. If you develop in trays as I do use surgeon's gloves. His claim that pyro caused Weston's Parkinson's desease is an old myth that has never been proven. He should have stated such in the article

    I do not believe he entered the test with an open mind or really did anything scientific. He simply proved what he has already stated previously w/o having done any tests. Now he feels he has a test to prove an old claim.

    steve simmons

  4. #34

    Pyro in the May/June "Photo Techniques"

    Jorge, et al.,

    As for the toxicity of Pyro, I checked the Merck Index, 12th Ed., and came up with the following:

    Pyrocatechol: LD50, Mice: 260mg/kg, and some references to its carcinogenic faculties

    Pyrogallol: LD50, Rabbit: 1.6g/kg (1600mg/kg), orally, all sorts of bad warnings (see below)

    Hydroquinone: LD50, Rat: 360 320mg/kg, orally, mainly skin and eye irritation.

    Metol: no LD50 or side effects noted.

    Phenidone: Low oral toxicity, no cases of dermatitis known

    With the exception of Metol and Phenidone, none of these are great about side effects (though a casual read of the Merck would indicate that Metol allergy is probably hydroquinone allergy). Pyro, on the other hand, is the only one listed as "Poisonous!", with the note that ingestion may cause kidney and liver damage, hemolysis, circulatory collapse, and death, and that these effects may result from absorption through the skin. The LD50 for injection/transcutaneous absorption in primates is not given. For the first three, the reader is referred to the 'Phenol' entry for further toxcitity data (which is extensive). It's definitely a wear a dust mask and mix with good ventilation chemical, especially if you're handling it in bulk.

    Why it gets through is not discussed, but it is in a different toxic category than the others. The O-chems I talk to think that it's a "don't look at it cross-eyed" rather than a merely "don't put your tongue on it" specimen as well. Given that I probably have enough heavy metals left in me from grad school, and am showing some signs of a 'metol' allergy, I will admire pyro from a distance. In a proper fume hood, I wouldn't worry about it much; outside the lab I'd be a lot more wary.

  5. #35

    Pyro in the May/June "Photo Techniques"

    As far as contact printing on silver chloride paper is concerned, my TMAX 100 negatives developed in TMAX RS 1:9 cannot hold a candle to my Efke PL100 negatives developed in Pyrocat HD 2:2:100 (I use an already premixed liquid kit form to avoid handling any type of powder). Sure they are different films but I have developed some TMAX 100 negatives in Pyrocat HD and it stinks! I have binned all my TMAX negs, whether developed in RS or Pyrocat HD. For contact printing on AZO that film cannot build enought contrast to even allow the use of Grade 3.

  6. #36

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    Pyro in the May/June "Photo Techniques"

    I took a close look at the comparison photos in the Photo Techniques article. To me, even as published, there was an obvious improvement in shadow detail differentiation and highlight detail in the PMK print vs. the D76 1:1 print. In the masked print those differences were more obvious, still - perhaps too much so. I've never seen a masked print "in the flesh" so I can't comment.

    I have, however, done my own extensive testing with 5x7 Tri-x enlarged to 11x14 on Bergger VCCB paper. I compared D76 1:1, Rodinal at 1:50, PMK and Pyrocat HD all processed in a Jobo at a motor speeed of "3". Both the PMK and Pyrocat were sharper to the naked eye, even at that degree of magnification, than D76 at 1:1. Pyrocat gave me better whites than PMK.

    I really wanted D76 to "win", so I wouldn't have to mix my own developer and I wanted to avoid the use of pyro if I could; but the improvement in the print, using pyro, was obvious.

    Finally, do you really want to create a mask for every negative you print?

    Take care, Tom

  7. #37

    Pyro in the May/June "Photo Techniques"

    It's definitely a wear a dust mask and mix with good ventilation chemical, especially if you're handling it in bulk



    I dont know that I agree with you here Fred, looking at your data there are many things that come to mind. Lets start with pyrogallol...1.6gr/kg??? whoa...if you have a rabbit that weights 4 Kg, that is 7.4 grams dosage! this is the problem with LD50 studies, the dosages are so massive that they are many times misleading. We all remember the cancer warnings about saccharine, which we now know were misleading as the dosages the rats were given was unrealistic.



    Lets move on to hydroquinone and pyrocatechol, here we have rat and mice, given the weights difference the dosages seem to be similar, with similar results.



    I really doubt that a person mixing from bulk would inhale more than any of the dosages you posted, and even then, there is still the matter of lenght of time the chemical was given to the animals, I hope you will agree that breathing pyrogallol once every 2 months is much less harmfull than having it fed to you daily for a month. Unlike heavy metals, organic compounds are broken down and filtered by the body without harm given a small enough dosage.



    WHich brigns me to my point, if you eat a burger king twice a week, that is more likely to kill you sooner than mixing pyrogallol and using it. Personally I use gloves when I develop in catechol and I have extractors in my darkroom which are on every second I am in there, this is just sound lab practice, but IMO the warnings given about pyro are exaggerated given the concentrations at which we use it and the lenght of time we are exposed to it when mixing it.

  8. #38

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    Pyro in the May/June "Photo Techniques"

    Jorge,

    COuld it be that the warnings are exagerated on purpose. Sort of for the same reason that there are warnings not to dry your hair with a hair dryer while in a full tub of water. There are people out there who are careless with their photo chemicals. I have worked with a few in college darkrooms. In fact one was banned for unsafe practices. I know I was extra careful while mixing pyrocat because of the warnings, and I am really anal when mixing my photo chemicals.

  9. #39

    Pyro in the May/June "Photo Techniques"

    Mark, you know there is no such thing as a "fool proof" anything. As soon as you think you have it figured out, some idiot proves you wrong by doing something incredibly stupid.

    I am just saying that given the concentrations we use in the developers and the amount and length of time we are exposed to it when in raw form are so small and short that for all practical purposes the risk is non existent. Let me give you and example, pyrocat stock solution is mixed 4 gr per 100 ml, that is about 4000 mg/kg if we fudge a little on density etc, you then dissolve this 100 fold to give you 40 mg/kg. I dont know the absorption rates of catechol but lets say you stick your hands in it for one hour and you absorb all of it (which clearly would be impossible or you would not be able to develop the film) at this point you are about 1/5 of the LD50 for a very short period of time, if you then stop and do not develop until next week, your body is more than capable of breaking down and handling this amount.

    As a haz waste disposal chemist, I was always asked why I used so many precautions when all I was packaging was a little bit of the harmful chemical. My response was: " you might be exposed to this only a few times a year, that is no big deal, I am exposed to this on a continuous basis and the dosages are cumulative, I HAVE to do this in order to stay healthy"

    It is the same here, a little exposure wont kill you, exposure on a daily basis to greater amounts will. It is all relative, to me the "warnings" about pyro on darkroom use are exaggerated, I bet you there is more pyrogallol in hair die than it is in 10 times the concentration of a developer.

    Look at it this way, we have our own lab "rats", Gordon Hutchins has been using pyro for more than 20 years, I believe Simmons is also right up there, if pyro was "so" poisonous, I bet they would have serious health problems by now. IMO the 3 most important factors to judge toxicity are: concentration, length of exposure and route of contamination. The LD50, IDLH, PEL numbers are only guidelines that have to be read with an analytical mind, I have seen both, instances where people in a lab are overcautious (in itself not a bad thing, better be safe than sorry) and I have seen instances where supposedly smart people with degrees up the wazoo do some of the dumbest things.

    Like I said, me, I use gloves and air extractors, but there have been times when I have stuck my hands in the developer and so far they have not shriveled and fall off...:-)

  10. #40

    Pyro in the May/June "Photo Techniques"

    Jorge,

    I'll probably concede you're right, though I'd still wear gloves when handling the solutions. My perspective, from being one of the people who used to keep you in business , is that I'd probably worry more about getting the solution on my skin repeatedly than the occasional dust, and the Merck warnings are probably only relevant if you work with it in vats. This being said, from the skin straight to your blood stream will have a different effect than ingesting it where it can be partially broken down first. We look at photographers from that era; Strand and Adams lasted a good, long, time, Weston succumbed to Parkinson's, which may be genetic, or may be because of sensitivity to the chemistry he used. Unless someone wishes to help fill out the paperwork so that I can spill pyro solutions on grad students and observe the results, we'll have to go with "it's probably not too bad in the quantities you're using".

    In all fairness, it's partly experience, and I worry more about organics that can transfer dermally than I do about the heavy inorgs, even though those drove me finally into Theory. I'll admit that the prints I've seen on older-style emulsions done with pyro, and contact printed are lovely (Adam's 16x20 of the aspens where you actually can see the worm-holes in the leaves comes to mind, though it was enlarged), but the paragraph-length warning about dermal transmission and toxicity after an entry that seemed to argue that you were going to have to eat pounds of it to be fatal has made me somewhat warier.

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