Rollo Pyro and BTZS Tubes

[Brian Ellis]

My my Steve, sorry if I touched a tender nerve. But why would seeing my photographs help you place my comments "in context?" For that matter, what do you mean by placing my comments "in context?" What context are you talking about? I think my comments speak for themselves, there's no context in which they need to be placed.

You seem to be suggesting that if I'm a terrible photographer or printer the results of any testing I do can't be valid. If that's the case I don't see the connection at all. I said the prints I made from negatives processed in two developers looked the same. I said nothing about their technical or artistic qualities, I didn't say they were good or bad, I just said there was no difference.

There actually have been quite a few people who have done a lot of excellent testing of materials but who aren't great photographers. Richard Henry comes to mind, also Phil Davis. I'm not in their league when it comes to testing but I think it illustrates the point that there's no necessary correlaton between one's ability to test materials and one's ability as a photographer or printer.

I described in some detail the results of my tests. How about telling us in comparable detail about the testing you say you did - what materials you used, what types of scenes you photographed, how you went about determining your developing and processing times, that kind of thing would be very useful to know so that we could properly evaluate your opinions.

[Francis Abad]

Andy, I regularly post at the APUG site. Got three right now in the critique gallery.

[Francis Abad]

Andy, check the posts under the name "Francesco".

[Andy tymon]

Francis, thanks for pointing me towards the APUG site. Actually, I was hoping to see negatives made of the same subject at the same time developed in both pyro and non pyro developers,merely to compare the images and evaluate their qualities. Maybe you could upload some at the APUG site as I'm sure others would like to contrast and compare. Best Regards

[sanking]

A debate on the merits of pyro versus non-pyro developers is fine. I think it is a mistake, however, to complicate the issue by confusing issues such as "vision" and "testing" as intrinsically linked to the type of developer we us, which clearly implies that those who have vision don't test, and those who test don't have vision. The only purpose served by the use of such language is to put down those you don't agree with.

A case in point would be the photographers Dick Arentz and Michael Smith. Dick is a very technical photographer who bases much of his work on BTZS type sensitometric testing and does not use Pyro developers, whereas Michael promotes the use of Pyro and hates to test. Very few people who have seen their work would question their vision or technical expertise.

I believe it is generally true that pyro users are not on the whole as involved in sensitometic testing as users of non-staining developers. This is most likely due to the fact that the color of the stain greatly complicates the use of sensitometry. Brian Ellis noted that “you can't use a blue filter on a color densitometer to read pyro negatives.” This is not entirely accurate. If you are printing with graded silver papers the narrow band blue filter on most color densitometers will give a fairly accurate indication of effective printing density. It will not be exact because graded silver papers, in addition to blue sensitivity, also have some sensitivity to UV, violet and green light. However, if you make sure to use a UV filter when printing graded papers the blue mode reading of a densitometer will come very close to the effective printing.

VC papers are more complicated because they have, in addition to a blue sensitive layer, a low-contrast green sensitive layer. With these papers the blue mode of a densitometer will indicate a higher contrast than is in fact the case. This can be overcome to some extent by using the Visual mode of the densitometer and taking the reading through a 47B filter. The 47B has a much broader band and passes a fair amount of green light.

People who use UV sensitive processes such as Pt/Pd, Carbon, Kallitype should have no problem at all with densitomer readings of stained negatives provided that they use an instrument capable of UV reading. UV reading densitiometers are capable of indicating to a very close value the actual effective printing densities of stained negatives.

Another issue when using staining developers is the color of the stain. Developers such as PMK and Rollo Pyro, which use sodium metaborate as the accelerator, tend to produce a greenish stain that has different printing characteristics than the brownish stain of developers like Pyrocat-HD, which uses the carbonates as the accelerator. The different way these developers render tonal values with scenes of certain colors can be as great as when using filters of different colors with traditional developers, yet I dare say that very few people who user Pyro developers have much of an understanding of this issue. The intelligent use of sensitometric testing can be informative in this regard.

[Kirk Gittings]

As usual Sandy, great insightful comments! I am not one to test for testings sake. I am only interested in making meaningful images that convey the mood of a place. I tend to find something I like and work with it for years, adapting my sense of previsualization to the materials I understand and have a comand of. To paraphrase an old friend, who has written alot of simple profound words about photography, Robert Adams "it is all about the image".

[Brian Ellis]

Sandy - The problem I had with the blue filter wasn't the accuracy of the readings as such, I couldn't get consistent readings. I.e. I'd read the same area three times and get three different readings. I don't think it was a problem with my densitomter since I hadn't experienced this problem with other materials though conceivably there was a problem with the blue filter itself, I don't use if for anything else.

[sanking]

Brian,

Sounds like something might have been wrong with your densitometer. I have never experienced any problem like this in reading pyro stained negatives and over the years I have used several different densitometers. Were you using a regular color densitometer in blue mode or a monochrome one with a blue filter?

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

Same here Brian, I have never had any problems getting consistent readings, either with Pyrocat HD or PMK, ABC. You must have had a glitch in your densitometer.

[steve simmons]

Dear Brian,

First of all you have not told us what film you did the testing with. If you used T-Max then you selected a film that will not show the advantages of a staining developer. If this is what you did you need to tell us, and if you did not you need to tell us as well. The choice of film will make a difference.

Secondly, I have frequently explained that I do my EI and dev time testing using the min time for max black etc. procedure. I have also done several articles over the years in View Camera explaining and showing how I test, how I expose and determine dev times, etc. My work and my procedures are a matter of public record.

Thirdly, you are a John Sexton devotee'. I have observed over the years of your posting that anything outside that approach seems to be dismissed by you and anything John does seems to be supported. In another forum you even encouraged someone who wanted to learn to print his own negs better to take a Sexton workshop where you don't get to do anything but watch Sexton print and are not allowed to use any of the equipment. When I pointed out to the questioner this fact you protested and continued to question my motives. John does not use a staining developer and I would not expect you to want to use one either. I am not sure you would enter the testing with an open mind.

So, if you want to go on being critical without also putting yourself out there (which is a safe but becoming a transparent thing to do) go ahead. It would be more informative if you would post remarks with a context so people can evaluate what you have to say by knowing all of the relevant info.

steve simmons