Large developing trays for roll paper 47" wide

[frotog]

Frotog

All my comments were directed at single tray NON scrolling method, where the tray is bigger than the print size and one processes the paper flat. I was assuming that is what you were referring too and it is obvious that I did not read your post well enough , I apologize for that. After re - reading your post I see pretty much what I use , but I call them troughs, as opposed to tray.

Reading my posts you will see I do use a scrolling method as well , but I use 3 troughs that you refer to but use much more chemicals ( 40 liters per trough) as in a typical day we somtimes output 100 ft of 30 inch paper scrolled of the lambda and single trays for post development .. ie second fix flat tray, hypo flat tray and wash. These troughs would be impossible to dump unless of course I had the incredible Hulk as my assistant. As well with that type of paper usage we need the volumne and we need to replenish after each 10 ft run of paper. Btw that is a lot of paper and the only way we can do this is by using a rip unit on the lambda to auto nest the paper and we pull 10 ft at a time to keep consisten scrolling method with 3min 40 second scroll time.

So with clarification, if you are using a single tray method that is larger than the paper , and you are actually printing murals which I define as 24 x30 and up my comments above stand .
When I am working under an enlarger making single prints I use 40 x 50 x 3" trays full of chemicals and I have 8 of these in a row , plus a much larger wash sink. * I am having a vertical
slot washer made that can handle 8 -30 x40 at a time which btw is about the best I can do in a single day , 4 negatives two final prints off each. Toning is done on a separate day.

If you are not using a flat tray for final wash with constant water and dumping, I wonder how one would get a good fix and wash... why do I ask ??? when I first started the scrolling method I tested the retained fix in the paper and found unacceptable levels with normal scrolling... the only way I brought the levels to archival standard was by extensive scrolling in each final fix , hypo and wash which at the end of the day battered the paper beyond acceptable levels for me to sell to my clients.

A major lab in Europe, started doing Lambda silver prints in a Hostetter processor which is transporting the paper like scrolling through a series of baths, they were assured by the manufacturer that they would be getting proper archival standards. They DID NOT take the paper and second fix, wash in a tray. The show was hung in a space and within months the prints started yellowing.
Large paper sheets do not like extended lengths of time in liquid, they get very soft and fragile , and in the case of the new Art 300 the edges start frilling with extended washing.

This leads me conclude- the minimum amount of scrolling which does stress the paper , and as much gentle flat tray processing as possible, with keeping up with the same archival standards as one would apply to 16 x20 prints, is what I strive to balance for.

Sheesh Bob, did you really not comprehend that my mural printing technique is to scroll?! Maybe it's time to look into that higher CFM fan for your darkroom?

All kidding aside our techniques are basically the same except I am able to accomplish finished professional results with one tray instead of a whole slew of trays. And please, I'm not talking about the DIY spray-it-down-with-a-hose-in-the-backyard-at-night results but rather the archivally-processed, blemish-free print that my clients expect for $600. And as such I maintain that with proper technique this is very doable without the significant expenditure that you maintain is necessary. I've carefully thought this technique through and have done it successfully for a long time and so have very little interest in making it more complex than it has to be.

A few observations based on what you've written above...

Scrolling, washing and handling the print... I think we can agree that the reasons to scroll rather than process flat is to avoid process handling issues - crimping, folding, tearing, etc. I'm sure there are people out there who've made crimp-free murals without having to scroll. Good for you. I'll pass for the reasons I've already enumerated, thank you.

I completely understand the desire to be hands-off whenever possible and I too would devise a work-flow with deep tanks for washing if I were still doing this commercially (I'd do this for inter-arrival times in my workflow, not because of material handling problems). But this is hardly a necessity to achieve successful, archival results. Nor do you need multiple trays to accomplish an archivally processed print. A second fix, hypo and an hour wash are standard practice for archival processing. My one tray process is no different in this regard.

Bob, I'm struck by your rather long processing time for your 10'x30". Is 3'40" what you would use with a smaller print? Do you need this amount of time to achieve even development? My guess is that with the depth of your baths you're experiencing increased drag which slows down scrolling time considerably due to the added resistance. This would also explain your results of "paper battered beyond acceptable levels". Or maybe it's those fingerless former loggers you've plucked from the canook hinterland and transformed into labrats? Tell them to try a shallower bath and a gentler touch if they still have feeling in their hands.

[bob carnie]

Frotog

nope I did not read your post correctly and I jumped on your post and really should not have. My point of view or observations are on large single trays that hold mural paper flat.
One of my pet peeves is the single tray method of printing, I just see too many issues with it.

FYI I do both methods of processing mural paper, scrolling in troughs as seemingly you do, and large tray 40 x50 x 3 inch.
The large amount of chemistry I use for scrolling is based on running up to 10 - 30 x120 inch sheets of paper in a given day and I use the larger amount of chemistry's so as not to pooch out half way(as stated I also replenish after every 10 ft of paper).
I do not think my scrolling time is long to get through 10 ft- about 30 seconds and then I have completely scrolled through - I lift up and rotate and scroll again.
I chose 3.40 min as my time due to balancing out a 21 step wedge that I have to balance each time I run this scrolling method. I use a longer time for murals print than regular small
prints as normal practice which is a about 2.30 seconds.

Second FYI- if you use a small flat tray 40 x 50 x3 inch to process 30 x40 murals your paper size is actually 33 x44 inches to allow for magnets to hold the paper down during exposure.

Now visualize how one would get the paper in the tray, making sure that chemicals will completely cover the emulsion and you can start rocking the tray within 15 seconds so as to not create flow marks.
now if you can visualize that , think about how deep the chemicals need to be in that tray to accomodate that 15 second criteria of getting fresh chemicals over the whole image and agitating to avoid flow marking.
Once you have calculated how deep the chemicals are in the tray, with consideration that I print all day and not in a evening , and I cannot think of anyone wanting to do murals in a small amount of time, you will see that the depth of chemicals is about 2 inches minimum to accomplish ones goals.

now if one is thinking of single tray development where you need to dump and fill to accomplish ones goals like lets say platinum printing, visualize how one would do this within the 15 second timeline . Also with some fancy math calculations you will find that you are mixing minimum 25 liters of chemicals to do the above. Now visualize putting 25 liters of water in a very long and wide tray and lifting that sucker.
What you will find is that unless the Incredible Hulk is standing next to you mere mortals like myself cannot dead lift that amount of water in a tray without spilling out the whole amount, let alone not damage the print while one is doing it , as well not create an incredible mess in the darkroom...If this sounds illogical fill the 20 x24 tray one has in the darkroom to the lip with water and dead lift it and pour into any container. When I was first starting out I could almost do this , 25 years later I would be lucky to pour out half the tray properly.



Both methods done correctly Trough or Tray will give dimple free prints , archival prints , but for the OP he/she should be very calculating before actually trying it or a lot of wasted money could end up in the trash can.

[sanking]

One of my pet peeves is the single tray method of printing, I just see too many issues with it.

Bob,

I have used single tray method (one print at a time) for printing kallitype, vandyke and platinum/palladium and it works great. Every stage is followed by a wash cycle to remove chemicals from the previous step so there should be no cross-contamination. If processing is done correctly there are really no issues with single tray method, other than the fact that you are limited to processing one print at a time. In my work I used a 16X20 tray to make prints up to about 12X18, and that is about as large as I would want to go with single tray method in my work space. I did at one time make some 20X24" print in a 23" X 33" tray but that was complicated and messy.

Sandy

[bob carnie]

Yes I have seen you do this on various occasions, I am addressing most if not all my comments to silver printing and image size over 20 x24. I have the luxury of tons of trays and space, which can make up for a lot of issues.
For silver I see a lot of washing of trays to make sure no contamination even with small trays .

Bob,

I have used single tray method (one print at a time) for printing kallitype, vandyke and platinum/palladium and it works great. Every stage is followed by a wash cycle to remove chemicals from the previous step so there should be no cross-contamination. If processing is done correctly there are really no issues with single tray method, other than the fact that you are limited to processing one print at a time. In my work I used a 16X20 tray to make prints up to about 12X18, and that is about as large as I would want to go with single tray method in my work space. I did at one time make some 20X24" print in a 23" X 33" tray but that was complicated and messy.

Sandy

[Brian C. Miller]

Also with some fancy math calculations you will find that you are mixing minimum 25 liters of chemicals to do the above. Now visualize putting 25 liters of water in a very long and wide tray and lifting that sucker.
What you will find is that unless the Incredible Hulk is standing next to you mere mortals like myself cannot dead lift that amount of water in a tray without spilling out the whole amount, let alone not damage the print while one is doing it , as well not create an incredible mess in the darkroom...

Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world.

[frotog]

Frotog

nope I did not read your post correctly and I jumped on your post and really should not have. My point of view or observations are on large single trays that hold mural paper flat.
One of my pet peeves is the single tray method of printing, I just see too many issues with it.

FYI I do both methods of processing mural paper, scrolling in troughs as seemingly you do, and large tray 40 x50 x 3 inch.
The large amount of chemistry I use for scrolling is based on running up to 10 - 30 x120 inch sheets of paper in a given day and I use the larger amount of chemistry's so as not to pooch out half way(as stated I also replenish after every 10 ft of paper).
I do not think my scrolling time is long to get through 10 ft- about 30 seconds and then I have completely scrolled through - I lift up and rotate and scroll again.
I chose 3.40 min as my time due to balancing out a 21 step wedge that I have to balance each time I run this scrolling method. I use a longer time for murals print than regular small
prints as normal practice which is a about 2.30 seconds.

Second FYI- if you use a small flat tray 40 x 50 x3 inch to process 30 x40 murals your paper size is actually 33 x44 inches to allow for magnets to hold the paper down during exposure.

Now visualize how one would get the paper in the tray, making sure that chemicals will completely cover the emulsion and you can start rocking the tray within 15 seconds so as to not create flow marks.
now if you can visualize that , think about how deep the chemicals need to be in that tray to accomodate that 15 second criteria of getting fresh chemicals over the whole image and agitating to avoid flow marking.
Once you have calculated how deep the chemicals are in the tray, with consideration that I print all day and not in a evening , and I cannot think of anyone wanting to do murals in a small amount of time, you will see that the depth of chemicals is about 2 inches minimum to accomplish ones goals.

now if one is thinking of single tray development where you need to dump and fill to accomplish ones goals like lets say platinum printing, visualize how one would do this within the 15 second timeline . Also with some fancy math calculations you will find that you are mixing minimum 25 liters of chemicals to do the above. Now visualize putting 25 liters of water in a very long and wide tray and lifting that sucker.
What you will find is that unless the Incredible Hulk is standing next to you mere mortals like myself cannot dead lift that amount of water in a tray without spilling out the whole amount, let alone not damage the print while one is doing it , as well not create an incredible mess in the darkroom...If this sounds illogical fill the 20 x24 tray one has in the darkroom to the lip with water and dead lift it and pour into any container. When I was first starting out I could almost do this , 25 years later I would be lucky to pour out half the tray properly.



Both methods done correctly Trough or Tray will give dimple free prints , archival prints , but for the OP he/she should be very calculating before actually trying it or a lot of wasted money could end up in the trash can.

Bob,
Regarding using single tray for processing flat.... I'm in complete agreement with you - it's simply not possible unless your sink is dead level and you're built like lou ferregno. This seems obvious, hard to mistake and really not worth arguing about. As for using multiple, huge trays with gallons of chemistry - I have neither the space nor the need to do so as all my mural printing requirements are satisfied using the scrolling technique.

No, for the third time, I SCROLL MY MURALS - not seemingly, but actually. Using small amounts of chemistry! One gallon per bath! In a fairly narrow, long tray that any sheet metal job shop can fab for you. And I can tell you that it works brilliantly and solves lots of potential work-flow problems that a bigger set-up is prone to. This single-tray/scrolling technique of making murals is what I can wholeheartedly recommend to the op or anyone else interested in making big prints in a less than huge darkroom.

[Greg Blank]

[Bruce Douglas]

Years ago I built a processing tube out for 32x40 prints of PVC sewer pipe, made end caps out of rubber sheet and put a drain in one end. It sat on a platform that tilted and had casters on it for the drum to roll on. I put chemicals in the drum through the fitting in the end. I rolled the drum to agitate the chemistry. When I wanted to change chemistry I tilted the drum and opened the drain to empty. I refilled through the same fitting. Once I put the paper in I did not have to move until it went into the washer. It worked well for me because there was no way to fit large enough trays or multiple troughs in darkroom I had to work in and it gave me good consistent results.

[RW Hawkins]

Bob,

Do you use something like a "pool noodle" to help support the paper?

[Pfiltz]

I'm just a newb to LF, but I'd be glad to buy any of you guys a drink if you did a YouTube vid on your techniques. Back to my cave....