Mini Graflex 23 with rollback questions?

[C4D]

I have a buddy who wants to get his feet wet in LF photography and plans to start with a Mini Graflex 23 with a 120 film roll back.
Some questions that have surfaced are can you still use a ground glass to compose your image and still use a roll back? Much like my 6x17 camera has a GG that flips down on hinges so you can use it to compose and then flip it down to attach a rollback, does the mini 23 have a similar setup?
We have noticed that mini 23's that are for sale do not include a ground glass so I was thinking that maybe you cannot use one with that setup?

[Ray Van Nes]

I have the Graflex Century 2x3 and use roll film backs all the time. It has a ground glass which I use to focus. In fact I took off the rangefinder to save weight. You focus on the ground glass , then remove the assembly and replace it with the film back. If someone is selling one without the ground glass, it is missing but was meant to have one.

[C4D]

Thanks Ray... exactly the answer I was looking for.
Does the GG assembly remove easily and quickly?

[Dan Fromm]

+ 1

Mini Graflex? That's not a camera model and is a dangerously inexact way to refer to a 2x3 Graphic press camera or to a 2x3 Graflex SLR. The two types are very different. Both came in several models. If you're buddy doesn't know what he's looking for he's likely to buy a camera that won't satisfy.

Opinions differ, but IMO the 2x3 Graphics of choice are 2x3 Pacemaker Graphic, 2x3 Crown Graphic (= 2x3 Pacemaker Speed Graphic without focal place shutter and with a shorter body) and Century Graphic (= 2x3 Crown Graphic with plastic body, integral Graflok back, and without a body-mounted cable release). A Graflok back is essential for using a roll holder. Visit www.graflex.org and read the FAQ to learn more.

The "ground glass" assembly is called a focusing panel. The focusing panel isn't an option, it is a part of the camera and all 2x3 Graphics were delivered with one. People who use 2x3 Graphics with Graflok backs often separate the focusing panel from the camera 'cos they use the camera with just one lens and focus with the range finder. Don't buy a Graphic with a Graflok back and no focusing panel, when you want one it will be impossible to find.

I use 2x3 Graphics. Most particpants in this forum regard 2x3 as medium format, not large. If your buddy wants the joy of large format, he should get a proper 4x5 view camera. Graphics are nice cameras, I'm not about to give mine up, but they don't have much in the way of movements.

[unixrevolution]

+ 1
I use 2x3 Graphics. Most particpants in this forum regard 2x3 as medium format, not large. If your buddy wants the joy of large format, he should get a proper 4x5 view camera. Graphics are nice cameras, I'm not about to give mine up, but they don't have much in the way of movements.

Insofar as large format is strictly about film size, I agree 2x3 on rollfilm isn't really LF. However, Large Format as we use the term encompasses not just raw film size, but the philosophy and process of using view cameras as opposed to SLRs and RFs. In that sense, I definitely think a 2x3 Graphic is a "Large Format" camera.

I have a 4x5 Super Graphic (it's my avatar!), and though the movements aren't nearly what my Monorail can do, with lenses 90mm or longer, it has more than enough movements for landscape work as a view camera. The front tilt and swing is pretty good, and the front shift and rise/fall are good as well.

To the OP: Your friend, if he's a crazy guy with some money, may find it worthwhile to also look into a Linhof 6x9 technical camera as well as a 2x3 graphic. The Linhof is more expensive, but typically sold in a more complete fashion, and has back standard as well as front standard movements.

[Ray Van Nes]

Yes it does. Once you have done it a couple of times it is pretty quick.

Beside the Graphic, there is also the Horseman VH which has more movements and a rotating back.

I have a Chamonix 4x5 but I still like having the small press camera. I have this tendency to hike up to the top of mountains . It is light and very rigid. Good in a wind. I find it also a great travel camera as roll film is easier to take through the airport. Mine has been to Europe,China, Tibet, Japan and Cuba.
Cheers
Ray

[Kuzano]

There is no MINI GRAFLEX as has been stated. The Century is a 2X3 camera using either 2X3 sheet film which used to be available and had backs for sheet (one was a Grafmatic with septums for each sheet of film).

Your friend might be better served to go ahead and get a Graflok backed 4X5, where he will likely end up when he quits futzing with tiny film (6x9). They make and have for years, Graflex 23 roll film backs that fit 4X5 Graflex Graflok backed cameras, and have the 6X9 focus lines scribed on the Ground Glass. For film flatness, look for the Graflex 23 Roll Film backs that have the film flatness roller pins at each end of the opening in the mounting back. These worked wonders, as 120 roll film has a propensity for curvature in the film (the way it's made and rolled), and 120 suffers considerably more film curvature than sheet film, even at 4X5. This is one of the reasons why so many have problems scanning 120 roll film (6X9) as opposed to 4X5 sheet film. The widthwise curve in 120 roll film is a humongous PITA.

If it's a question of image quality... shoot 4X5 from the Get Go. You'll get flatter and higher quality images.
If it's a question of money, ie. roll film cheaper than sheet film, I propose that the fussing around you will do using roll film on a camera with movements and in the scanner will not result in a less expensive proposition. 120 will be way fussier.

If you want to shoot 120/220 roll film (very few 220 emulsions left in the marketplace, as opposed to the choices for 4X5. In fact, there may be no 220 choices left), just get a Fuji or other rangefinder and forget movements. Otherwise shoot at least 4X5 where movements will actually have an effect on the final results.

I've shot MF and LF for years. It rarely occurred to me to use a bellows camera for roll film, and when I did rarely do so, I used a 120 film back on 4X5 minimum.

For 6X9 (2x3), I maintain a great old Fuji Texas Leica. Prior to that, I shot MF on a Mamiya Super 23 (w bellows) and Mamiya Universal (more back options). Never once did I utilize the back and bellows options on the Super 23's. Never saw results that led me in that direction.

You friend may want to consider whether he really wants to shoot Medium Format... or Large Format. Again, if cost is the factor, it's a wash in terms of real time expense. If the choice is for BELLOWS AND ROLL FILM, then just lay out the big bucks for a technical 6X9 camera like a Linhof, Technica, or Horseman which were dedicated to such usage. Again, make sure your back choices are designed to hold the film flat on image capture. On scanning, make sure to buy the film holders that straighten out the curve that is the nature of Roll film.

Oh yes, and on your very first comment... You get your "feet wet" on Large Format by shooting Large Format. It's much easier than your friend may think. Shooting Medium Format is not a short cut to Large Format. It's an entirely different aminal!!

[C4D]

Thanks everyone for their opinions on this camera, much appreciated.

My friend has interest in the 2x3 because he eventually wants to get into a 6x17 view camera but wants to learn the LF basics on a 23 because it uses 120 film roll backs, it still has some basic movements to get acquainted with, lightweight use for backpacking, and great price point to start off with. So as of right now film size and final resolution is really not a concern but learning the LF basics and getting familiar with using a roll back on a view camera is currently his priority so he can smoothly transition over to a 6x17 camera later. I personally learned 4x5 and view cameras with a Speed Graphic years ago and it was an excellent platform for me to gain experience and progress the craft with because it was not too overwhelming and the overall function was fairly simple. Looking back then when I first started and knowing what I do know now it would appear to me that the 2x3 with a rollback would have been an excellent trainer going into 6x17 and even 4x5.

[TheDeardorffGuy]

Terminology has been mentioned. Not going there. A 2x3 Graphic is a fun camera to use. The Century graphic is pretty with its red bellows. If you have big fingers it can be a bit of a pain to use. It is no way largeformat. Just Medium Format. I have one setup with a 3 inch Dagor. Nice and sharp. the other has a 65 angulon and a kalart rdfr that works fine. They are fun. And finally get the Roll film holder with the knob not lever. The ones with the lever have a gear system that generaly is very worn. the knob versions are less prone to severe wear.

[C4D]

A 2x3 Graphic is a fun camera to use.

I think this is really one of the most important aspects that he is looking for in trying out a view camera, thanks.