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Thread: Is there such a thing as fine art photography anymore?

  1. #31
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    Re: Is there such a thing as fine art photography anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay DeFehr View Post
    Theres nothing new in decrying the ease and ubiquity of photography, and lots of people who think of themselves as artists have little or no education in the arts. I think of art as a conversation between culture and history, and anyone who walks into the conversation without a solid background in it, isn't likely to have much of interest to contribute, whatever their skills.
    For me, the most significant change in photography is not in the way photos are made, or in what numbers, or of what subject matter, but the way they're shared, stored, collected, displayed, etc. Photographs are no longer Sontag's slim objects , but code. Photographers who aren't confronting this paradigm shift may soon find themselves having a separate conversation, about the past.
    Going back to Jay's post.

    I do think naive art is not a vacuous category, and what makes it naive is the ignorance of "culture and history" on the part of the artist. I'm always a little scared of "culture", or at least talking about culture. For me, culture should be built in, not built on, and too often, we try to make people cultured by browbeating them into treating as art what we want them to treat as art.

    There are, of course, those who have the education to carry a conversation at a high level between culture and history. But in general they can only be entertained when talking amongst themselves. At a cocktail party, two physicists can talk shop in ways perhaps nobody else present can follow, but that does not make those others philistine. The physicists don't mind, because they realize that physics has to be translated into plain English before it can be appreciated by non-physicists. (They may despise how much simplification is required, and they may have opinions about why that is the case, but that's another argument.)

    Artists, though, have to consider to whom they are speaking, if they have the objective of actually communicating. And just as physicists are engaged in criticism when they talk shop at a cocktail party, but (usually) considering end applications when actually doing physics, artists may also dip into deep jargon when engaged in criticism or talking shop but still seek to reach out to people of less education with their art.

    It seems to me there are three possibilities for target audiences: The artist himself (and I might perhaps include the artist's circle of friends as an extension of himself), the common art buyer, and the art purveyor. The artist may choose to speak only to himself, in the hopes that what resonates with him might also resonate with others. Or, the artist might have something to say to regular people--non-artists. Or, the artist might be specifically trying to impress an art critic, gallery owner, or some such. It is cliche to think that all artists are so mentally self-sufficient that they seek only to please themselves and care nothing for the opinions of others. Many try to sell art in flea markets and other retail situations where the potential buyers are not educated in photographic art criticism, and those who are might think of them as pandering to a low market. But for that group, the art that is good enough may be too sentimental, nostalgic, or obvious for the more educated. That does not make it not art, or even not good art. It just may not be the art that pushes the medium in new directions. Not everyone has to be innovative.

    And I go back to my concern that innovation is given too much weight in art criticism. A museum might most desire to preserve and display art that redefines a medium, or that pushes historical boundaries. But are museums really where all artists belong? Doesn't art really belong in the hands of people who love it and display it for their own edification and appreciation? But more often than not, artist wannabes fall into one of two traps. The first is that they do not know art history, and present as innovative something that has already been done. This could be a career-damaging mistake for those physicists mentioned above. In young artists, it mostly just seems embarassing as much as dishonest, especially when they try to define their work as innovative using incomprehensible words rather than by their art making it plain. The second is that they become so innovative that they forget to speak to people. Occasionally--just occasionally--one of these artists rises above this mistake and does something that is unappreciated in his own time but that redefines the medium. And maybe he's driven by a vision so clear that he doesn't care that nobody else appreciates it. But I suspect that most who try to be one of these artists is acting out a role rather than really being that person, and are subject to being crushed by rejection.

    I suspect there is much room in the world for simple beauty, even if it is not at all innovative. People still hang reproductions of old art because they like it, and because seeing it on their walls gives them pleasure. As I said before, I hope that's good enough, because that's the best that most of us (me, especially) can hope to achieve.

    As to the definition of art, though, I don't think art is defined by critics. I think critics may influence what people consider to be good art. Sunday painters are artists, even if their work is banal, if they intend it to be and if it pleases them as such. And much art that is considered banal by critics might well be loved by those less critical.

    For me, art = craft X choices. This discussion seems to me about the choices, but many will still frame it in the context of the craft. The consumer of art doesn't, perhaps, care, at least when they are buying art for art's sake, and not for some other motive.

    Rick "whose choices can usually be summed up by one word: 'Neat!'" Denney

  2. #32
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    Re: Is there such a thing as fine art photography anymore?

    Of course there is.

    Nicolas-cage-cats

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    Re: Is there such a thing as fine art photography anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrus View Post
    Well I certainly appreciate that people do art for their own satisfaction but it seems very limiting and self-referential -- is that all that there is to being an artist? I mean, people fix cars because they enjoy it too, or golf, or collect seashells. There's gotta be more meaning to being an artist than "I do it because I personally enjoy it". Generations ago, the Expressionists brought us a new way of seeing things when they rebelled against the worn academic art of the time. We don't even have anything to rebel against because its all lost any meaning and significance. The best you can hope for is to piss off some fundies by putting christ in a jar of pee or something but that's just a cheap way to bait them and create some sensationalism. And apart from the fundamentalists, no one really gives a hoot about that either.
    You have to please and satisfy yourself. You cannot control how anyone else percieves or appreciates your work.
    One man's Mede is another man's Persian.

  4. #34

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    Re: Is there such a thing as fine art photography anymore?

    It can't be dead, I see so many web sites titled "Fine Art Photographs by ________."
    Brian Ellis
    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you do criticize them you'll be
    a mile away and you'll have their shoes.

  5. #35

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    Re: Is there such a thing as fine art photography anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by rdenney View Post
    Nearly 40 years ago, Sontag wrote about the ubiquity of easy photography making it impossible to make a fresh artistic statement in the way that, say, Weston did with his peppers. This is not a new question.
    Steiglitz may have been the first to complain about easy photography making everyone think they are an artist. In fact, he may have been the first to say that photography was dead, in the 1890s.

  6. #36

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    Re: Is there such a thing as fine art photography anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by jcoldslabs View Post
    But don't listen to me. I'm a nihilist at heart and figure that when I'm dead all of my work will be tossed in the trash and my brief time on this planet will be wiped from the collective memory shortly thereafter. Therefore, I photograph in the here and now because I enjoy it, full stop.

    Jonathan
    That pretty much sums it up for me as well!

  7. #37
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    Re: Is there such a thing as fine art photography anymore?

    As always it seems to be a matter of literacy. Most seem to think the way to allocate resources culturally today is to buy what is cheapest. Most don't understand quality. People think that if they buy a household appliance that would last them a lifetime it would cost too much even if they might buy 3 or 4 over their lifespan that ends up costing more in the long run.

    I think that the lack of education on what is good and what is not, combined with little Johnny getting a "participation" medal for showing up to a soccer game, combined with "the masses" (somewhat guilty myself of this) participating in the mass discussion of how someone bought a diet coke and posted it on facebook and it now has 32 comments is what has brought us to this level of literacy for art, science, and many other things once thought important to be a well rounded adult.

    As for fine art in photography, if I can create an image that spurs discussion due to it's beauty -- and not shock value -- or even better, someone wants it enough to have it in their home, then that is what I consider fine art.

  8. #38
    Format Omnivore Brian C. Miller's Avatar
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    Re: Is there such a thing as fine art photography anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrus View Post
    Is photography as a fine art form, dead?
    Photography, i.e., the art of photographing, as in action, is never dead as long as someone practices it as an art. That's rather like asking if dancing is dead, etc.

    Now, is there a thriving market for the sale of pictures of rocks, trees, and grass? Depends on the rocks, trees, grass, marketing, audience, and economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrus View Post
    Are we so saturated with images, cheap and easy-to-create images, that they have lost any significance?
    Depends on which images. There's a discussion on APUG based on someone carping about a guy with an 8x10 making big images of field grass. Now, do a web search using the words "pulitzer prize photograph" and see the results. Different than grass, eh? Yes, we are saturated by excellent photographs. There are nearly 7 billion people on the planet, and cameras are common. This isn't 1895.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrus View Post
    When any 9-year old with a cellphone camera and Photoshop can be a photographer, does it mean anything anymore?
    The Kodak Brownie was introduced in 1900. A 9-year old could operate one of those, too. Did the Brownie devalue photography? Certainly not for the 9-year old. Photography enriched that child's life, and the lives of the child's parents.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrus View Post
    This isn't a wet-vs-digital rant. The question is whether photography as a whole, wet or digital, reduced to banality.
    PHOTOGRAPHY HAS ALWAYS BEEN BANAL!!!!

    The first photograph was of some rooftops. Yeah, the exposure took 12 hours, but that's just the way the material worked at the time. The artistry of the photographer is to create a photograph that transcends the banal. Same with painting, etc. Yes, a two-year-old child can do a decent job of framing a photograph. Will it be an amazing, mind-blowing photograph? Maybe, who knows. Can they do it again?
    "It's the way to educate your eyes. Stare. Pry, listen, eavesdrop. Die knowing something. You are not here long." - Walker Evans

  9. #39

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    Re: Is there such a thing as fine art photography anymore?

    Didn't Hitler paint banal watercolors?
    One man's Mede is another man's Persian.

  10. #40
    Format Omnivore Brian C. Miller's Avatar
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    Re: Is there such a thing as fine art photography anymore?

    Quote Originally Posted by E. von Hoegh View Post
    Didn't Hitler paint banal watercolors?
    Godwin's Law: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."
    "It's the way to educate your eyes. Stare. Pry, listen, eavesdrop. Die knowing something. You are not here long." - Walker Evans

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