Goerz-Berlin never made "gold" lenses, did they?

[E. von Hoegh]

Goerz lenses from 19th and early 20th century, became briefly part of Zeiss because of WWI, sold to B&J in about 1927 or so.



Lynn

Why did Zeiss continue to make and sell lenses marked "Carl Zeiss Jena Goerz Dagor" from ca. 1926 up to WW2?

[Lynn Jones]

To E. von Hoegh (by the way, I like your name, I teach Photo History),

They could have, if they wished because they lost patent and copyright rights due to WWI, also for the same reason winners of the war restricted the use of lenses for possible military use to only one company which is why Goerz was forced to be part of Zeiss. In this time period, Zeiss and Goerz were enemies of one another, sort of like the old days of Ford and Chevvy. The dislike (more like hatred) between the companies is the reason the Zeiss sold Goerz to B&J because in hurt the sales of both companies. There were many lenses made with the trade name Zeiss-Goerz but they largely didn't sell very well. My guess to you, E. von, is that Zeiss did not have a good wide field lens but the 65 degree coverage of the well known Dagor would probably still sell well even with the dislikes often seen. Also the Plasmat while invented in 1918 at Meyer Gorlitz by Paul Rudolph was not critically sharp due to the lack of an appropriate optical glass which would permit that. This lens was sometimes called a "Plastic Lens" indicating that it was soft focus. As glasses got better that type lens got better and was pretty good into WWII. However they were the best when "rare earth" glasses became availabel

Also the sale of Goerz is thought to be 1927 it could be +/- 1 year. George Drucker was a career long friend of mine whom I knew from about 1963 or 64 until his death in about 1987 or 88, even he didn't remember precisely the date of the sale.

Lynn

[David Lindquist]

Why did Zeiss continue to make and sell lenses marked "Carl Zeiss Jena Goerz Dagor" from ca. 1926 up to WW2?

Or how was I able to buy a Gold Dot Dagor in 1969, four years before Schneider Corp. of America acquired Goerz Optical Co., Inc. To say nothing of the historical record I cite above that the "Gold Dot Dagor" replaced the "Golden Dagor" in 1963.

David Lindquist

[David Lindquist]

To E. von Hoegh (by the way, I like your name, I teach Photo History),

They could have, if they wished because they lost patent and copyright rights due to WWI, also for the same reason winners of the war restricted the use of lenses for possible military use to only one company which is why Goerz was forced to be part of Zeiss. In this time period, Zeiss and Goerz were enemies of one another, sort of like the old days of Ford and Chevvy. The dislike (more like hatred) between the companies is the reason the Zeiss sold Goerz to B&J because in hurt the sales of both companies. There were many lenses made with the trade name Zeiss-Goerz but they largely didn't sell very well. My guess to you, E. von, is that Zeiss did not have a good wide field lens but the 65 degree coverage of the well known Dagor would probably still sell well even with the dislikes often seen. Also the Plasmat while invented in 1918 at Meyer Gorlitz by Paul Rudolph was not critically sharp due to the lack of an appropriate optical glass which would permit that. This lens was sometimes called a "Plastic Lens" indicating that it was soft focus. As glasses got better that type lens got better and was pretty good into WWII. However they were the best when "rare earth" glasses became availabel

Also the sale of Goerz is thought to be 1927 it could be +/- 1 year. George Drucker was a career long friend of mine whom I knew from about 1963 or 64 until his death in about 1987 or 88, even he didn't remember precisely the date of the sale.

Lynn

Am I the only one who finds this confusing and unconvincing?
David Lindquist

[Floyd Waller]

Don't be confused by Lynn Jones. Feel fortunate that he shares his knowledge with you. I have known Lynn as a good friend for almost thirty years and have always relished his knowledge and enthusiasm for the subject. That he has held the many important positions that he has had in this very subject area speaks to his expertise.

[E. von Hoegh]

Don't be confused by Lynn Jones. Feel fortunate that he shares his knowledge with you. I have known Lynn as a good friend for almost thirty years and have always relished his knowledge and enthusiasm for the subject. That he has held the many important positions that he has had in this very subject area speaks to his expertise.

I would be grateful, if the information was accurate.

[Songyun]

Hey Louis, Is the person you talked to named Eric? Yes, he is a jerk. Some other ppls worked there are nice. I can not believe that they can run business with that guy.

Hey Len I had bad dealings with an owner of CCG not that long ago. For one he will treat poorly IF he knows your friends w/ Jim at MPX.

He has a Bitter rivalry with MPX. Though MPX could care less about CCG .It's kind of silly but I have witnessed his shiity attitude and dealings as well as receiving the poor treatment. The best part was I was in his store with a pocket full ready to BUY. I left the store with empty hands and full pocket.

Anything I asked to see would prompt him to want to raise the price as I studied the item. Kind of like I knew something about the item he didn't. He assumed he had under priced it. It was a very strange experience. The funny thing was he was high (price wise) on most of the items I looked at.

Your experience may vary .

[Lynn Jones]

I have no idea, David, I've been in this business for over 64 years and I don't remember any "Golden Dagors" as early as you do. I do remember that Harry told me about the Goldens (a regional sales managerfor Goerz) it would have been around 65 or 66, however, you could certainly be right, at that time I was the #2 guy in sales and marketing with Calumet. We were making lenses in the US under the name of Caltar, S Caltar, and WF Caltar. The manufacturing was by Ilex Optical and the design types by Bill Ryan, Manny Kiner, and Me. Regarding your recollection time of Gold Dot, I'd like to hear more about that, I'm always willing to learn.

Lynn

[David Lindquist]

I have no idea, David, I've been in this business for over 64 years and I don't remember any "Golden Dagors" as early as you do. I do remember that Harry told me about the Goldens (a regional sales managerfor Goerz) it would have been around 65 or 66, however, you could certainly be right, at that time I was the #2 guy in sales and marketing with Calumet. We were making lenses in the US under the name of Caltar, S Caltar, and WF Caltar. The manufacturing was by Ilex Optical and the design types by Bill Ryan, Manny Kiner, and Me. Regarding your recollection time of Gold Dot, I'd like to hear more about that, I'm always willing to learn.

Lynn

I'll be happy to put together what I know from the (largely) written evidence I have. Please bear with me, it'll probably take me until tomorrow to get it organized.
David

[David Lindquist]

Hi, Leigh ~ I was thinking of the non-Swiss Gold Dots, like this from the CP Goerz American Optical Co,:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/rare-GOERZ-A...item19cd9b9339

As I said, there are just too many versions of Goerz and the Dagor for me to keep track of!

(Attachment for when the listing disappears)

Leigh and Mark- Just to add more to the body of fascinating minutiae about Dagors: I have two American made Dagors, both engraved Goerz Optical Co. Inc. One is a 6 inch Dagor, s/n 8235xx, purchased new in 1969. It's mounted in brass (and in a Compur shutter). The gold dot is between "INC." and "Dagor" looks like it might have been done by a sort of spot facing with a center cutting 1/16 inch end mill.
The 12 inch Dagor, s/n 8404xx has its gold dot in the same location. Looks like it was done as Leigh described, a small circular indent was engraved/ spot faced and then filled with gold paint. I expect this lens has an aluminum alloy mount.

Incidentally the best information I've seen for when the company name changed from "C.P. Goerz Am. Opt. Co." to "Goerz Optical Co. Inc" is from a posting Kerry Thalmann made to APUG 11-23-08. There he said he had a May 1964 Goerz price list with the former name and a December 1964 price list with the latter name.

David