Pyro and the newbie.

[Mark_3632]

I have a lens on the way, I have figured out how to solve the jammed rise and fall on the 2D 5x7, I have 5 light tight film holders and eight that have not been tested, a rock steady tripod, and meter with spot attachment. Now I need the film and the developer. My choice of film will be dictated by developer. Almost ready to go WOOHOO!! I just found the APUG site and there are a lot of the same names there. The photo world is so small, especially the LF photo world.

You folks have been very helpful.

Here is the question, and I e-mailed this question to B&S a few weeks ago and have not gotten an answer.

There seems to be this aura of mystery around pyro, but it seems to be the developer of choice for alternative processes. It also seems to allow the printer to go from say AZO to Pt/Pd, or vice versa as well as other methods. There seem to be a couple of types. How do you know which to use?

Do all films stain green like the bergger example on the B&S website?

People have said it reduces the appearance of grain, is this true or is it perceived? I hate grain that is why i am looking to contact print.

What is the shelf life of the chemicals? I have a toddler running around who puts a lot of demands on my time, and energy and I do not expect to get out and shoot a whole lot and definately not right away. I may get out once a month or less. Should I save up my negs and process them when I have enough to use up a batch of pyro right away, or can I get it and keep it way up high for a while unmixed, and mix it as I need it, in the amounts I need it, then put the left overs way up high?

What is your favorite film to use with pyro, and why? I realize this is a question of taste but my favorite B/W film, delta 100, is not sold in 5x7 so I am in the market. I am just looking for a starting point. I will of course play with all of the films available after I think I have a handle on the processing. I am leaning toward the Bergger BFP(BPF?) 200, but I have always trusted the wisdom of those more experienced than I.

[Ken Lee]

I'm no expert, but I just did a test comparing a number of films, and concluded that Bergger 200 absorbed Pyro stain the most, and performed best in capturing a genuine feeling of light. I do not print to Platinum or Azo, but still have found PyroCat to be a substantial improvement over the developers I have used in the past - even with more modern films that hardly absorb the stain. I have read that classic Bergger and Efke films attempt to reproduce the formulas of decades past, and contain more silver.



Read Sandy King's article, which can be found at http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PCat/pcat.html This will explain that different Pyro developers result in stains of different colors. PyoroCat HD gives a brown stain, for example.



If you call Kevin at Bostick and Sullivan, you will find him to be remarkably helpful and instructive.

[N Dhananjay]

Pyro and catechol based developers (staining and tanning) have a number of special characteristics that make them particularly suitable for alternative processes. The most crucial is probably the contrast added by the stain - the developer byproducts stain and tan the gelatin in direct proportion to the amount of silver that is reduced. The stain is very effective at blocking light, especially light in the UV region that is used for exposure in the alternative processes. You are probably aware that most alternative processes can accomodate a considerably longer range of negative densities, which means that you rnegative needs to be considerably more contrasty. In a normal developer, you would develop for longer to increase the contrast but the longer developing time would increase grain and irradiation effects. The density in a pyro neg comes from silver as well as the stain image. In other words, you would develop the negative for a shorter time to get the same amount of printing density (since the silver image forms only part of the printing density, the stain adds the rest of the printing density). Plus the tanning helps to control irradiation effects and maintain highligt separation and sharpness.

The amount of stain is dependent upon the emulsion characteristics and so some films seem to lend themselves particularly well to pyro. From anecdotal accounts, it looks like old style emulsions seem favored - Bergger is touted as being particularly good, but also FP4, J&C films, Tri-X etc etc. Keeping qualities depend on the exact formulation but in general, the stock solutions are reasonably stable. Pyro oxidizes rapidly in working solution form. And please do keep all chemicals (not just pyro) out of reach of inquisitive toddlers and pets.

The readings on the unblinkingeye.como site and Gordon Hutchings book "The Book of Pyro" will give you chapter and verse on these developers. Cheers, DJ

[Bruce Watson]

I have no experience with Pyro. I keep looking at it, but I haven't done it. The main reason is that Pyro is toxic, especially in powder form (which is what you get when the spill you didn't see dries out). This is something that you might want to really think about with a toddler in the house.

As to the appearance of grain, I'm not a big fan of grain either. I have found through experiment however that I can enlarge my 4x5 Tri-X negatives, developed in XTOL 1:3, to at least 6x without being able to see the grain. At all. I'm talking about a 24x30 print that is "nose sharp" - no grain, excellent sharpness, viewed from about 12 inches. I doubt seriously that you'll see any grain from a contact print, even with a loupe, regardless of your film/developer. Of course, YMMV. And, there are lots of other reasons to contract print. I'm just talking about visible grain.

As to learning more about pyro, and what versions work with what processes, and what films work best with which pyros, I agree with DJ. The best sources seem to be Gordon Hutchings and his book, and the unblinkingyeye.com site.

[Jim_3565]

Shelf life: for PMK, about 2 years. I've heard claims of ten years, but I didn't get that much. ABC: 3 months for the A solution in tightly capped, amber glass jars. I mix the B solution, the sulfite, from the powder for each batch of working solution so it's not an issue. The C solution, the carbonate, will last indefinitely.

Stains: Tilex soap scum remover absolutely obliterates stains from both pyro and amidol on contact, even if they have dried.

[John Cook]

I certainly haven’t the chutzpah to poo-poo Pyro. Great and wonderful photographers, far beyond my level of skill, have used and sworn by it.

However, I believe it is accurate to label Large Format as a technical Dummies’ Delight. Almost as long as the shutter opens and closes you will get a great picture. It takes extreme skill to destroy a LF shot. (Step on your own foreskin lately?)

When I was in school, we were forbidden to use anything smaller than 4x5 until we were nearly ready to graduate. 35mm, like old age, is definitely not for weaklings.

I have been pouring over 100-year-old photographs this week (on the web) of my formerly fair city, Springfield, MA. (http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/%7Edickbolt/Springfield.html)

These are simple, run-of-the-mill commercial quickies of street scenes and horse-drawn fire wagons. And they’re absolutely gorgeous, compared to the miniature-format pap now being published in most popular magazines.

The point of all this is that all contact prints and most enlargements of sheet film developed in common-as-dirt D76 or ID-11 will absolutely take your breath away. Obsessing over exotic potions has diminishing returns.

[John Kasaian]

Mark,

I don't know beans about pyro, but if you want to give FP-4 a try, thats what Ultrafine from www.photowharehouse.biz is reputed to be. They charge $16.95 for 25 sheets of 5x7. www.freestyle.biz has Arista Pro 125 which behaves like FP-4+ in 5x7 for slightly more. Cheap film is nice to learn on!:-)

[Michael Kadillak]

Best advice I can give you - Keep It Simple.

It sounds to me that you are new to large format and as a result, I would recommend that you leave the pyro alone until you determine the technique you will be using for film development, figure out how to express yourself with your camera and work out all of the "bugs". The Photo Warehouse film mentioned above is a great choice because it is sold in 5x7, is inexpensive and works with a host of conventional developers that do not have anywhere near the toxicity of pyro.

After you get your legs under you, give it a try if you must. The consistent pursuit of the "Silver Bullet" has caused more people to waste valuable energy constantly worrying about what they are missing with another film/paper combination when they should just focus on the image and learn to use a single film and proven developer. Good old D76 never let anyone down. Let your results dictate a change in materials and you will be just fine. Good Luck

[lee\c]

Michael has given the proper response. I would think D76 straight or 1:1 will give you nice negs to learn with. Next year, start to think about PMK Pyro. I use PMK for nearly everything I do, but I spent years with D76 and Microdol-x and HC-110 before I started with PMK.

leec

[Ken Lee]

I respectfully disagree with the others. As you are already in a Large Format learning phase, it's not much more effort to start with something special. You are probably drawn to large format for the quality, rather than the convenience, so let's presume that some of your early LF images are going to be wonderful. Let's presume that some are going to be "keepers". Don't wait a year.

Speaking of convenience, using PyroCat HD, you only need developer and non-hardening Fixer. There is no acid stop bath (just a water rinse), no Hypo Clearing Agent (because there's no Hypo per se), and thus no endless washing to remove Hypo. Try something like TF-4 Archival Rapid fixer from Photographer's Formulary.