existing daylight processing equpiment

[Leigh]

Well, you said that trays were too complicated.

I can think of nothing simpler except perhaps a flat piece of plastic and a pitcher.

- Leigh

[johnielvis]

dude....trays give scratches...and they're not suited to daylight and multi-sheet...they can be made scratch proof perhaps by fixing the film like I stated before....but still then....will take much more chems than a tube...and a tube IS a tray with a curved bottom...and a way to fix the film...

[Leigh]

dude...

You're the one who suggested using trays (post #21).

If you're not happy with the current options why don't you invent a solution rather than crying to the masses, asking them to do your work for you?

dude....trays give scratches...

Trays do not cause scratches. People cause scratches.
I develop all my 8x10 film in trays, usually four sheets at a time, and have never scratched a single sheet.

- Leigh

[Mark Stahlke]

If I'm reading between the dots correctly, your issue is with marks on the back of the film caused by the film contacting the processing equipment (tray, tube, whatever).

What about making some sort of plastic frame that fits around the edges of the film to keep both sides of the film off the equipment. I'm imagining something that looks vaguely like a film holder with no front or back, just the edges. If the plastic frame is flexible, the film-in-frame could be processed in tubes or flat in trays.

[johnielvis]

If I'm reading between the dots correctly, your issue is with marks on the back of the film caused by the film contacting the processing equipment (tray, tube, whatever).

What about making some sort of plastic frame that fits around the edges of the film to keep both sides of the film off the equipment. I'm imagining something that looks vaguely like a film holder with no front or back, just the edges. If the plastic frame is flexible, the film-in-frame could be processed in tubes or flat in trays.

yes...I've thought of that too!!!! got one made!!!! it works!!!!! it is best for no scratches....but still not perfect....still get the uneven marks (no scratches though...this solves the scratches)...and I think I've found out why!!!!

OK guys--after re-looking at the flow on the inside I"ve seen that the roller base turns so fast that the "trough" section on the bottom doesn't keep enough liquid on the bottom to keep the film sufficiently submerged to keep liquid behind larger sheets of film---in order to get liquid back there for big sheets, you need a certain amount of depth of submersion to get the pressure for the liquid to push itself behind the film...now...I can fix this by putting in a LOT of chems....this is wasteful though....this is why I can get best results uising the motor base with a pre-soak with like DOUBLE the quantities of liquid....and even that doesn't work too good...putting even more liquid in makes the tube very heavy, hard to turn...may even start leaking....and then the quantity of liquid starts really pushing the film around too!!!

now...when the tube is at rest....there's plenty of liquid down there to get the job done---so that dude that rocks the tube back and forth...and slowly turns...that works...sort of like a curved tray........SO.....I 've determined that spinning the drum slow enough to keep the liquid in the trough on the bottom--to keep the film submerged will provide the results I'm looking for.....

THEREFORE...I am now purchasing one of these speed controllers and am going to (today) hand roll the tube very slowly for the development step to ensure full submersion...if the results are nice and perfect like I think, then I'm set for automated perfection when the speed control comes in....

here's the item:

http://www.smarthome.com/30317/Sunco...troller/p.aspx

In other words, folks...the problem all along seems to be the fast rotational speed of the standard motor bases---this is likely why hand processors get nice results and the machine users sometimes have problems---the drums spin so fast that the film never ever gets full submersion....it turns out that FULL submersion is needed to dissolve them dyes in the back in a uniform manner---at regular speeds the "spray" action in the drum makes the splotches and sometimes allows the film to stick....

We'll see....

[johnielvis]

dude...

You're the one who suggested using trays (post #21).

If you're not happy with the current options why don't you invent a solution rather than crying to the masses, asking them to do your work for you?


Trays do not cause scratches. People cause scratches.
I develop all my 8x10 film in trays, usually four sheets at a time, and have never scratched a single sheet.

- Leigh

I'm looking for a soution and looking for ideas..that's why..I'm not crying, mr complainer,and you're not helping...you have no ideas, just criticism

OH...no...anything that touches the film WILL cause a scratch...it's a physical law, dude....you know...action, forces, etc.....people too cause scratches, but I really doubt you keep film floating at all times in a try..it scrapes the bottom at one time or another, and when it does, scratcheroo, dude....even if it's slight, it's there---don't matter...I think I got it licked now....I'll know for sure in a week hopefully when I get my variable speed control and process enough to be confident

[johnielvis]

If I'm reading between the dots correctly, your issue is with marks on the back of the film caused by the film contacting the processing equipment (tray, tube, whatever).

What about making some sort of plastic frame that fits around the edges of the film to keep both sides of the film off the equipment. I'm imagining something that looks vaguely like a film holder with no front or back, just the edges. If the plastic frame is flexible, the film-in-frame could be processed in tubes or flat in trays.

whups...got carried away with the speed control solution

yes--I have made a film holder that works very well HOWEVER it didn't solve the problem as full submersion is needed....that's why I REALLY started losing my mind....till I got a look inside at it working...that was my using roll film reels idea turned into....same thing sort of...something to hold the film.....

the problem is that to get enough of a grip on the film, I end up cutting off some of my image area---I get a bigger edge rebate because of the amount of film needed to hold it, you know?....well....not THAT big...but......anyways--it does work -- the frames sure do prevent scratches!!!! but...that's only PART of it

however I think the main thing is just keeping a LIQUID barrier between the fillm and the drum...so...the slower speed with sufficient liquid height to provide pressure is likely the way to go....

OH....only need the slow speed--high pressure during the DEVELOPMENT step to get that BACK LAYER DISSOLVED EVENLY....THAT is the main problem....full submersion just like a tray provides---this is why tray has no such problems...FULL submersion of the BACK surface!!!!...once it's developed I'll be able to roll it at regular speed since the back dyes/layers will already be dissolved, see!!!! hey hey!

IF it works...IF it works...I'll find out hand rolling soon....weekend chores first....and the snow...and the snow

[johnielvis]

new discovery about the inside of the tube and rotation

the film actually contributes to the problem of not keeping chemistry in the trough...particularly if I use the film holder/barrier----

if the tube has no film, some of the water walks up the tube....but you put film in there with a spacer/filmholder to keep the filmi away from the tank and you've just TRIPLED the surface are AND provided a thin channel for laminar wall adhesiion to make the film/tube annular channel like a super pump....it REALLY picks up the water.....

SEE...you gotta SEE what's going on....I'm even now almost certain that the slower rotation speed will cure all of my ills.....with tube developing that is...

it really is surprising to see the dynamics.....

you know...this is why that "sine wave" agitation is totally useless then...if the liquid is being spun around anyways, the sine wave to produce gravity pressure gradients doesn't work since the liquid doesn't stay in the bottom.....unless you got a LOT of liquid in there...and then you may as well use a tank.

SEE...DESIGN is one thing...what it actually does after it's built is another....I'll bet the designers of these things only tested them in action and never seen what was going on inside....how the hell did they callculate the rotational speed, huh? even if it was based on keeping liquid in the trough, they didn't count on the film tripling them forces and then further acting like pump.....

as a side note...I took a large bottle and guess what...the liquid stayed on the bottom in the trough....smooth bottle, I guarantee, was their "model"....you throw film in there and some ridges and such and that's no smoothe bottle anymore!!!!!

HA...all this time and nobody's even seen what's ACTUALLY going on in there

[johnielvis]

WHOA...new idea!!!!!

the ridges in the tubes that are meant to hold the sheets around the circumference....IF I cut out sections of them, THEN the leading edge of the film can act like a SCOOP and the plunging when it comes down...then the momentum of the water (or inertia) will force the liquid behind the film--between the film and drum...right now, these ridges act as a barrier to the liquid....take away sections of the barrier and BAM...HUGE improvement in getting liquid back there.........cut out sections on the other side and there's a drain!!!!!

man...this is gonna be just like tray processing now if it works!

hey hey...now there's part 2 of getting it perfect.....all I gotta do is cut out some sections of the separators and roll it slower and I'm in business with this double whammy (well....gotta test gotta test....first just the slow speed and see where I get"

[Coelus]

I spend my days improving processes and machinery for a very large oilfield services firm. I've done it for several different industries. One of my close friends is a CE who designs control loops. Give us $150k and about a year and I will hand deliver a custom built fully automated processor to you that will work with any commercially available film size you specify. It's not that no one wants to build a new processor. It's that there needs to be proper motivation.

BTW the price would have dropped to $50k if you were able to clearly state your problems and limitations with current machines, what would specify a successful design (and 'simple' & 'foolproof' are not design specifications), and you were able to communicate with others in a way that didn't seem rude and condescending. The extra $100k is for us putting up with someone who appears may turn into a customerzilla.