Possible new film

[dwross]

Michael,

I agree with you completely for a "Big Biz" business model and a product like lenses (and of course, my agreement does not mean that we are necessarily correct.) But for a low tech, low capital start-up, such as a dry plate company could be -- success, if measured in modest initial terms, is very feasible. Again, my opinion.

Regarding supporting remaining manufacturers: I doubt there would be enough dry plates sold to impact their bottom lines. What I do believe is that the very knowledge that traditional materials aren't going to inevitably, irrevocably disappear lends confidence to photographers to keep (or build) darkrooms and not give up on mastering their analog skills. Much of the downward spiral of Kodak, et al, has been the echo chamber that film is dead and once gone...well, we're screwed. Might as well quit now. And around and down it just keeps spiraling. If I were in charge at Ilford, I'd establish a program to encourage cottage industry dry plates. It would do nothing but good for the longterm health of the industry.

As for Dream Big optimism, look no further than Bostick and Sullivan 30 years ago. Who would have thunk?

d

[Michael Kadillak]

Michael,

I agree with you completely for a "Big Biz" business model and a product like lenses (and of course, my agreement does not mean that we are necessarily correct.) But for a low tech, low capital start-up, such as a dry plate company could be -- success, if measured in modest initial terms, is very feasible. Again, my opinion.

Regarding supporting remaining manufacturers: I doubt there would be enough dry plates sold to impact their bottom lines. What I do believe is that the very knowledge that traditional materials aren't going to inevitably, irrevocably disappear lends confidence to photographers to keep (or build) darkrooms and not give up on mastering their analog skills. Much of the downward spiral of Kodak, et al, has been the echo chamber that film is dead and once gone...well, we're screwed. Might as well quit now. And around and down it just keeps spiraling. If I were in charge at Ilford, I'd establish a program to encourage cottage industry dry plates. It would do nothing but good for the longterm health of the industry.

As for Dream Big optimism, look no further than Bostick and Sullivan 30 years ago. Who would have thunk?

d

I am going to respectfully disagree with your assertion above. Bostick and Sullivan is in business as a "niche" aggregator. They do the leg work to make it easier for one stop shopping for alternative photographers. It is my understanding that they do not produce as highly complex a product as film and I will tell you straight up that film IS a highly complex product to produce. If you disagree with this fundamental premise, then please talk to some with direct professional experience in this regard.

Producing and selling a film product is identical to my lens business model. It takes technical skills and an investment of more size than you either anticipate or want to cough up to produce an acceptably performing prototype product. Balancing the enormous variables necessary to meet your (and the customers) expectations sounds simplistic enough but is always multiples more than you want or expect to expend. Unless you are planning to do all of the R&D, chemical engineering, emulsion testing, coating, packaging, packaging testing, emulsion degradation testing, manufacturing, marketing and customer service yourself in your home office and or darkroom, you are in for a wake up call. If one is planning to complete these operations solo, then you better set aside some significant blocks of time for these tasks because you are going to get an introduction to the real world. The fact of the matter is that one's expectations that your time is worth even $1/hr is a stretch. At the end of the day you are faced with the reality that making any return on the investment of your modest expectations of what limited capital or time you expect it would take you to make this "work" is in fundamental error. But sometimes people need to go down this road to figure this out for themselves.

My experience is that being young, bright eyed and eternally optimistic are intrinsically marvelous characteristics. But God gave us brain to allow us to differentiate the challenging business world from the rest of the world. If I could get $20 for every time I saw first hand someone confuse optimism with legitimate business savvy and unnecessarily expend time and resources to get this experience, I would have a great second income.

[Ben Syverson]

If I could get $20 for every time I saw first hand someone confuse optimism with legitimate business savvy and unnecessarily expend time and resources to get this experience, I would have a great second income.

That's true, but there's a flip side to that. If every entrepreneur knew exactly how much work, time and expense their project would take, most of them would stay at their desk jobs. I would have decided not to do iPhone apps, and I certainly wouldn't have involved myself in a camera business.

When it comes to business, ignorance is underrated. Making a product is like having a baby—if you wait until you're 100% prepared and 100% financially stable, it'll never happen.

[dwross]

Michael,

I certainly understand your point of view. I will maintain, though, that everything in your second paragraph is the kind of commitment the "young, bright eyed and eternally optimistic" have always had to make. It is what has brought us nearly every invention and innovation. Failure is an option, yes, but it is only old folks and the unfortunate young they convince who think that big bucks right out of the chute should be a guarantee in any venture. Second jobs, second mortgages, beans for supper -- it's all a realistic part of any start-up. It's only recently that venture capital money has come to be seen as an income in-and-of itself.

re B&S: Dick, Dana, and crew are much more than aggregators. Originally, Dick had to basically invent the business of selling Pt/Pd. Now, we take it for granted as a photographic medium. Currently, they manufacture their own high-quality carbon tissue. That takes as much, or more, skill than making glass dry plates.

2 cents (maybe less)
d

[jnantz]

Maybe this is the site people are referring to: http://www.autochromes.fr/english/last.html
Autochromes shot as recently as 2009.

nope, this is another one, and they look beautiful !
they must have found the right potatoes

thanks for the link jnl!
john

[Michael Kadillak]

Michael,

I certainly understand your point of view. I will maintain, though, that everything in your second paragraph is the kind of commitment the "young, bright eyed and eternally optimistic" have always had to make. It is what has brought us nearly every invention and innovation. Failure is an option, yes, but it is only old folks and the unfortunate young they convince who think that big bucks right out of the chute should be a guarantee in any venture. Second jobs, second mortgages, beans for supper -- it's all a realistic part of any start-up. It's only recently that venture capital money has come to be seen as an income in-and-of itself.

re B&S: Dick, Dana, and crew are much more than aggregators. Originally, Dick had to basically invent the business of selling Pt/Pd. Now, we take it for granted as a photographic medium. Currently, they manufacture their own high-quality carbon tissue. That takes as much, or more, skill than making glass dry plates.

2 cents (maybe less)
d

Let's visit this subject after you bring your product to market.

[dwross]

Let's visit this subject after you bring your product to market.

Not this product. I'll leave that to someone younger -- as I was 25 years ago when I started and successfully ran a tech product-based niche company with very similar challenges. Today, I research the history of silver gelatin emulsions. I make the stuff for myself, but based on way too much life's experience (euphemism for I'm getting old) I'm quite sure it could be a business with even-to-better odds of success. But, I take your point. Enough cheerleading someone else's risk.

d

[SpeedGraphicMan]

I will agree that some 800 speed b&w film would be nice in Large Format.

If you could make 100/200/400/800 color negative material and sell it at a "competitive" price. I would be super happy!

And don't forget us archival folks!!!
Some better choices in the 70mm long roll (for making color separation masters) would be much appreciated!

[C.T. Greene]

By my very nature I am an entrupanurer. I am always dreaming up business ideas and products. I also have a degree in chemistry and have plenty of engineering connections. After starting LF I realize there is still plenty of need for quality film products, especially in the LF and MF arenas.

In the intrest of feeling out the market before I invest a substantial of time, money and energy, how open would you be to a new brand of film?

Assume the film is competativly priced and available in a few different flavors. ie color neg, and different iso's.

Also, if I were to start something of this nature, what would you like to see in a film and film company? That is, what characteristics are important to you?

YA got my vote, I would love to have some of the old kodak 'PPC' film line in sheets . . ah an eight by ten sheet film, pushable with 1600 speed & 400 grain . . . ah what a dream!

[Leigh]

Best thing we can do is to purchase existing film from the remaining manufacturers.

Absolutely correct.

Fragmenting an already minimal and specialized market just puts everybody out of business.

Then where do we get film? From this new guy?
Nope... He closed up shop and started a fried chicken franchise. That's the problem with 'entrepreneurs'.

- Leigh