For Bob Salomon
Just to clarify the situation, could you answer the following for me?
If I buy a Heliopan hood from Robert White in the U.K. and 3 months later decide, for whatever reason, to sell it on eBay, can I;
1. Advertise it on the U.S. Ebay site?
2. Sell it to anyone in the U.S?
Thanks
Steve
www.landscapesofwales.co.uk
"If I buy a Heliopan hood from Robert White in the U.K. and 3 months later decide, for whatever reason, to sell it on eBay, can I;
1. Advertise it on the U.S. Ebay site? "
No you are not in the U.S.
If you live in the U.S. then yes you can.
"2. Sell it to anyone in the U.S? "
Yes, As long as you are not advertising it for sale.
"Thanks
Steve
www.landscapesofwales.co.uk
"U.S. photographers right this minute could be unloading on eBay Heliopan filters that they picked up while travelling abroad!"
No problem at all. You can list and sell it. You are not trying to export it to the U.S. as you carried it here from out of the country.
Listen carefully.
The Trademark policy only effects people who are located outside the U.S. (live outside the U.S.) and are trying to sell it to someone in the U.S.
It has no effect on anyone travelling anywhere and carrying back product for their PERSONAL USE.
If you are bringing back commercial quantities from outside the U.S. that would appear not be for personal use then you may very well have a problem with Customs.
The Trademark policy only effects people who are located outside the U.S. (live outside the U.S.) and are trying to sell it to someone in the U.S.
But like everything else there are two sides to every story. I bought my heliopan filters in the US as well as my linhof, used them and still use them often but now I have moved to Mexico. SO if I went to e bay and wanted to sell my filters or camera you are saying I can't because it infringes trademark? I think you are mistaken in this interpretation.
If this had happened 15 years ago, probably the only guy affected would have been the seller. But presently with the internet, info gets spread really fast.
So you prevented the sale of this hood, is it worth the bad feelings and probable loss in sales this has created? Think about it Bob, I think this was a really bad move and detrimental to your sales, B+W is still out there and what you have managed to do is drive potential customers to your competition.
"if I went to e bay and wanted to sell my filters or camera"
Who said anything about a camera, a lens, a compendium, etc.
This pertains to Heliopan. They do not make cameras.
I am someone who has historically greatly appreciated Mr. Solomon's contributions on photography.
I would like to know something.
If I am a Canadian and buy a product in the US that is represented by HP Marketing, does HP Marketing intend to prevent me from selling it over the internet to an American resident in the US?
If I am an American and buy a product in Canada, does the Canadian product representative intend to prevent me from selling it over the internet to a Canadian? Or, for that matter, a European?
Am I right that Mr. Solomon's company regards any product that they represent as grey market when sent into the US including a good that I have bought, in my case as a Canadian who has bought in the US or, say Europe, and that I choose to offer on an international auction site?
If the answers to these questions are in the affirmative, I can only say that while I greatly value Mr. Solomon's contributions, his company is not living in the real world and is in the process of generating a great deal of badwill, as distinct from goodwill. It certainly means that I will not buy any of the products that his company represents that are subject to this policy, which means that I would like to know which products are affected and which are not.
To pursue the analogy, the idea that someone in France, or in the US, is breaking the law if they sell me a second-hand Arca Swiss camera for delivery to Canada is really ridiculous. If that is what Mr. Salomon is saying, I'd really appreciate it if he would be clear about it.
Rory,
We own the Heliopan Trademark in the U.S as well as the HP Combi-Plan T. We are not speaking of any other item we sell. We do not stop you from purchasing anything from anywhere.
We do have the Heliopan Trademark Registered with US Customs and, if you are trying to export Heliopan to the U.S. Customs can prevent you from doing so without our written permission.
If you purchase a product we sell that we know is gray market - that means it was sold by a dealer who imported it into the U.S. by not going through the factory authorized distributor - HP Marketing in our case - then it is not covered by our warranty (which is generally longer then the factory warranty) and we do not supply service or support for that gray import. It may be covered by a dealer warranty (but not through factory trained service), nor do we supply technical support if we can prove it is gray.
Importation of Heliopan by such dealers is commonly called black market as the name is registered with Customs where gray market goods are not.
If someone lives in the U.S. and is dis-satisfied with the laws and regulations concerning Customs, Duties, or any other Federal or State or Local ordinance then they should contact and complain to their elected officials who can change the law.
Heliopan, you, HP Marketing, etc. are bound by the laws as they stand today if you live in the U.S. If you don't like you have the power of the ballet to try changing it. But you won't change those laws here.
I am the person who originally tried to sell the Rollei lens with Heliopan hood. First off, I would like to say that it was not my intention to start a flame war about Bob Salomon or to question the ethics of American policy on grey market imports. I only wanted to inform others of certain aspects of US trademark policies and how they pertain to the selling or buying of photographic equipment.
American has the biggest market in the world. I know of many photographers living outside of the United States that purchase camera equipment from the US because companies like B&H and Ritz Cameras offers such attractive prices. But companies such as HP Marketing and MAC would like everybody to believe that it is illegal to import ALL products that bear their trademarked names. This is simply not the case with products that were purchased from authorized dealers in the United States, they are legitimate US domestic products, regardless of where they were originally manufactured. But don’t take my word for it. William Hennessey, a professor of intellectual property law and a consultant on international intellectual property issues for the United States Patent and Trademark Office was kind enough to correspond with me on this issue. He states, “A product of foreign manufacture originally purchased from a trademark holder in the United States, which then has been used outside the US, is not a parallel import but an authorized domestic product. So the reimportation into the US of such a product should not violate US law. The principle of exhaustion should hold. If, however, the goods are sold as "refurbished" rather than just used, then the trademark holder alleging that the consumer would be confused may demand an express disclaimer attached to the goods, but should not be able to prevent the re-importation."
I think there is also some confusion about the difference between patent rights/copyrights and trademark rights. William Hennessey explains, “In contrast to the patent right and copyright in the United States, under which the right owner may exclude all others from selling or distributing articles covered by the right, the "trademark right" is merely the right to prevent others from confusing one's customers in the marketplace, and not an exclusive right to sell.”
So patent or copyright infringement would come into play, if for example, I was trying to sell Adobe Photoshop through Ebay. HP Marketing however, only owns the trademark rights. They prevent grey market imports on the legal basis that the customers in the US market may be confused as to whether the products they purchase is grey market, or a US product. If HP Marketing was a subsidiary of Heliopan, they would not be able to prevent grey market imports, because they would be considered the same company. That is why companies like HP Marketing and MAC emphasizes that they are not affiliated with the foreign manufacturers in any way.
Two observations....
1. Wouldn't it have made more sense to wait and see if the so called black marketer, tried to sell more heliopan stuff before making a big fuss??? I also feel a simple email to the seller should have been the first order of business. Clarification goes a long way.
2.Regardless of what you feel is right, all that really was accomplished was A: Preventing one hood from entering the USA. B: A lot of ill feeling towards HP Marketing. I understand the whole meaning behind trademarks and such, but in this particular instance it is sounds like the equivalant of pulling somebody over for doing 30.5 mph in a 30 mph zone. I feel having a little judgment goes a long way.....
of course we will hear from 77 posters who feel it is ok to pull somebody over for doing 30.5 mph in a 30 mph zone.
It seems a significant detail that the filter was bought from U.S. retailer. Didn't HP derive their trademark benefit from that sale? Why should they derive further benefit?
In any event, EBay seems to be the great equalizer when it comes to mail type transactions. When EBay entered the picture, things changed in a fundamental way. I expect that EBay will also have its impact on these types of issues as well.
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