Recent problem with Bob Salomon on photo.net / ebay

[John Bailey]

As a final observation on this topic, this may be a vision of the future. There is no doubt certain segments of the photography industry are undergoing significant changes.

Ebay has altered the way we buy and sell used equipment. Whereas before we might go to our local photo store and sell or put the equipment on consignment for the local patrons, today we are going on the internet.

No longer do we support that local dealer with our steady business. We do expect them to carry a full line of merchandise so we can touch, feel, examine and compare equipment and supplies. Then we race home, toggle Ebay or Google and find the cheapest prices from anywhere on the planet to save a few cents or dollars.

When a company is trying to preserve its legal market opportunities, we add letter after letter in public forums to call for 'boycott' of all their products. Maybe HP was right, maybe they were wrong, but the recriminations go on regardless if we understand the full situation or not. However, then we still demand that HP or other similar companies give us full inventories of new products, full service, the ability to return and exchange defective products and endless tech support.

On top of this, we are probably forgetting the obvious. Film is a diminishing product. It may not become a buggy whip, but look at the past three years of what is happening at Kodak. Fewer people are buying film cameras and accessories, let alone film stock. Maybe this is true for LF, maybe we are holding our own in purchasing equipment and supplies. However, the world is changing very quickly. We are quibbling about hoods and filters when alternative digital programs may make the products not as necessary. When the producer decides to cut back on product lines, we will all complain about being abandoned. No longer is it merely a battle between yellow boxes and green boxes for market share, now digital cameras and backs are putting a whole new spin on the industry.

Be careful of what we are hoping to accomplish. The actions may just result in a conclusion we don't expect or need.

Regards,

John Bailey

[bglick]

About this specific situation, I think Ken summed it up best.....

> Yes, you have no way of knowing if that is true, but, without full investigation of the situation, you have no way of knowing that it is false. That being the case, Bob, it seems that you do not have adequate evidence to justify the actions that were taken against the individual in question.

However, the last thing we will ever hear from Bob S is an apology or an admission of any wrong doing! Like everyone else on this forum, I have had my confrontations with Bob. I always give him the benefit of doubt, but he always ends up shooting himself in the foot. Although he does promote his products well and helps those who need help with these specific products, he could certainly would gain from some customer relations courses, which might reduce the number of people who alienate him. I have never seen a product rep have so many negative statements said against him. (where there is smoke, there is usually fire) However, I do have a very simple question for Bob S, but if he follows his past tactics of forum communications he will ignore the question.

Bob, as you know, all these issues revolve around one issue - price! If products were not so expensive (or maybe even very cost effective) in the USA vs. other markets in the world, your USA dealers would be selling product to people throughout the world, which I am sure is against the policy of many of your makers. However, I am sure HP would not spend the funds investigating or enforcing such policies as they can hide behind the vail of, we sell to retailers, we can't control who they sell to. Bob, I do understand your issue about the added cost HP puts into a product vs. a garage re seller. However, what baffles me, and you never seem to address it..... HP has added cost, but it also has huge buying power? Why doesn't this added buying power lower your product cost with these makers to support your marketing efforts, which would then bring your retail product pricing more consistent with other markets? Wal Mart advertises heavily, and has huge overhead with all their stores and distribution, yet they still sell products at or below market value. It seems HP has this capability, but it does not seem to work itself through in the market place?

In the UK, many of the products you sell also go through a rep like HP and then to dealers like Robert White.... with the same distribution chain, why are your product lines so overpriced vs. these other countries? I don't consider products that cost 10 - 20% more as overpriced, but I do consider products that cost 100% more as overpriced! This is what I often see when viewing your product lines. I realize the amount your products are overpriced vary, and please don't start quoting examples that are in your favor, I will blast out a huge list of products that are disgracefuly overpriced. I hope you will "rise to the occasion" and give us your perspective on this. I am sure you would agree if price was not an issue, all these grey issues would not exist!

[Jon_2416]

Yep, ole Bob and the HP police apparently don't have anything better to do... I've seen this guy 'suggest' that certain products are better than others to newbies... without identifying that he works for the distributor of said better products. It is my opinion that Saloman is arrogant and deceitful. Not only that, his company, since they do such an abysmal job of marketing some great LF gear, is doing a great disservice to the LF community.

It is amazing to see all the people on PN and here that are refusing to purchase any items distributed by HP. Good job, Bob! Your lack of marketing skills never fails to amaze me.

Not to mention, it looks like you don't have any legal ground to stand on. I hope Mr. Chen does get a lawyer. I hope he posts the results here.

Also, I think it might be wise for people to mail Heliopan and alert them to what activities the current distributor is engaged in. Here is the email:

info@heliopan.de

We can only hope that Heliopan will realize how they have been hoodwinked by HP, fire them, and get a competent, non-arrogant, legal-acting distributor...

I buy my Heliopan and Linhof gear directly from Europe. I'm willing to return it there for repair work. Customs problems? Nope, never. Bob likes to try to intimidate people with that whole "we are working with customs" yada yada yada, but do you really think customs bothered to check that polarizer shipped to NYC? Yeah right! Try the term 'dirty nuke' to see where the priorites of customs are correctly placed.

But... I buy my Heliopan and Linhof gear from Europe--not only because it is cheaper--but because I refuse to put a single cent into the pockets of people of the likes of Saloman.

Email me direct if you want my contacts in Europe.

[Mark Farnsworth]

If an item is purchased from a US authorized retailer, and sold by a customer in the US, then no restriction would apply on its resale. Bob is using the technicality (in bad faith) that the item is being sold by someone in Canada and would thus be imported to US (even though it was originally imported and sold by HP Marketing).

Under US law, a registered trademarked item such as Heliopan, that was purchased for personal use, may be legally resold after 1 year.

Unfortunately, HP Marketing has made eBay an unwitting accomplice to this injustice.

[Lyle Aldridge]

I hesitate to add to this thread, but I'm an IP lawyer who has some knowledge on the underlying issue, and hope I can clarify what is going on. This is an esoteric dispute about archaic statutes, and no one would have paid attention to any of it a month ago.

There is a provision of the 1930 Tariff Act that makes it illegal to import foreign-made goods bearing a trademark registered under the Trademark Act then in effect, unless the owner of the trademark has given permission. Both the Trademark Act and common manufacturing and import practices have changed drastically since then. Foreign manufacturers and their authorized importers have been arguing with the Customs Service about the current meaning of the law for several decades. They contend that the law prohibits importation of gray market goods. The Customs Service disagrees, pointing out that the Trademark Act in effect in 1930 was repealed in 1946, and that the goods that offended under the old Trademark Act were completely counterfeit goods, not genuine products. They take the position that the statute applies only to importation of counterfeit products, and that there is nothing unlawful about gray market imports. So far, the courts have mostly agreed with Customs, based on common sense, and on the fact that the Tariff Act explicitly refers (by Title and Section) only to trademarks registered under the old, repealed Trademark Act.

This difference of opinion is still working its way to the Supreme Court, and until it is decided there, it sets up an unfortunate situation where trademark owners are forced to take what look like unreasonable steps to preserve their position in the controversy. They feel they must take a strong stand on every apparent instance of unauthorized importation, lest they be accused of “waiving” the protection that they have spent millions trying to get the courts to recognize. It unfortunate that people like the Photo.net contributor get entangled in this stuff, especially since I personally agree with the Customs Service on the issue. But, life does have its speed bumps, and this one hardly seems worth the emotion that it has generated.

[John Downie]

It is hard for me to imagine that the standard required to avoid waiving one's trademark rights includes going after single individuals selling single items on ebay. I just do not believe that a court would decide in this way.

[Ellis Vener]

Having just readthrough this entire tempest in a puddle makes me so mad I just want to do something right now...

Like go out and by something marketed in the USA by HP Marketing. especially if is from Heliopan.

There is absolutely nothing wrng with a individual or a company protecting their interests. yet certain people here seem to think that is immoral if not unethical. They have to do as a matter of course. As would you if you were in business.

as for having some kind of "boycott" of the products HP Marketing imports, I'd like to see the hands of the Schneider, Lee filters, Sinar, Toyo, Ebony & even Arca-Swiss reprsentatives who come to this forum at all --much less on a regular basis --to help photographers.

[Corwyn]

Seems to me the crux of the matter is this:

"Yes this means that some individual outside the US can not export Heliopan to the US without violating our laws. That individual may be simply what he seems - a person who wants to sell a personal possession. However we have no way of knowing if that, in fact, is true or if he is using this as a means to bypass the Trademark rules and regulations."

Is Bob saying that, since he can't determine whether the individual is selling legally or not, he is acting as if it was illegal? That the person was in fact guilty until proven innocent. Or more precisely guilty because checking for innocence was too hard?

Thank You Kindly.

[Jonathan Brewer]

I recently purchased a Classic Camera from a dealer out of the UK, when I got the package, it had been opened and rewrapped with a wrapping that had 'inspected by US Customs', on it.

The camera seemed to work ok, but I had no idea what 'inspected' meant, and you definitely can mess up the shutter cocking mechanism by attempting to cock the shutter without having film in the camera, so I called Customs to ask them if they had tried to operate the camera and possibly breaking it with the idea of making a claim, they laughed, and said that they take something out of box, look at it, and that's it, they said they were concerned with bombs and drugs and terrorism and were swamped with those kinds of issues and they emphasized that they didn't have the time to be concerned with anything else.

[Gem Singer]

That was the fastest action by the moderator(s) I have ever experienced on any of the forums. Why don't you delete the ENTIRE thread and pretend it never happened?