Photography rights ...

[OldCrow]

So there is a thread that has spun out into la la land with someone who is very mis-informed spouting about what is legally right and wrong. I spent some time and looked around to find some basic and helpful info that some folks may find useful.

Its not a complete guide to what you can and can not do. I do not have a clue as to what the very most current laws are, and I do not claim to be a lawyer at a big NYC firm. I simply want to have a better clue as to whats cool and how to handle being stopped by the authorities.

There is too much talk about the bill of rights, and how people see it. So here is the first amendment.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

That is the exact wording of it as it was drafted by the hands of the founders of this country. There is no mention in any of the annotations on photography or of art for that matter. This has been said time and time again. The reason that there are no clear cut laws pertaining to photography is because it is not covered by the Bill of Rights.

http://www.photographybay.com/photography-laws/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photography_and_the_law

Oh and a nifty little thing I found about cops and what they can and cant do with photographers here in NYC. Its in the patrol guide section 212-21 and states clearly that it is not against the law on the MTA to take photos unless using a tripod.



Also you can find a pretty clear idea of where you can and can not shoot on most transit systems nation wide. Some of the info is a few years old, but it should still stand.

http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/photopermits.html

The only people that have been arrested for photography related events have been the morons that are not willing to move on and do as instructed by the authorities. Seems that if you respect the laws that are in place you do not end up getting arrested for trespassing.

Here is a clear and concise outline of the basic rights of a photographer that was compiled by a REAL attorney at law. He does not just play on on the internet like some people. It is a simple and basic guide to whats okay.

http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

Also here is a link to the rights of photographers by the ACLU

My favorite here "Note that the right to photograph does not give you a right to break any other laws. For example, if you are trespassing to take photographs, you may still be charged with trespass."


Seems the only people having issues are the ones breaking the law. Which they should have issues.

Easy way to avoid getting harassed is simple to most of the photographers in the world.

Do not place a tripod in the way of moving traffic flow in a public space.
Do not use lights and other stand mounted gear in a place that would make it difficult. for people to pass.
Do not be rude or stubborn to the authorities if asked to move along.
Do not act like a know it all and start a drama filled scene like an upset school girl.

If you are respectful to other people and understand that you are not untouchable by the law you will be fine.

"If once you forfeit the confidence of your fellow-citizens, you can never regain their respect and esteem."
Abraham Lincoln

So with all this said, I hope someone can find this useful. It would be great to not have to have ranting and tons of BS thrown around about laws and rights which are not in question. Go out shoot photos and show them to the world (if you want).

Hope you all have a great day.

GH

[Steve Smith]

Here is the UK version of the photographers' rights: http://www.sirimo.co.uk/2009/05/14/u...ers-rights-v2/

This is broadly similar to the US version apart from the bit about trespass.


Steve.

[BrianShaw]

Thanks for that perspectice, Old Crow. If I were asked to summarize the whole issue I would use ony two (2) of your sentence:

"Seems that if you respect the laws that are in place..."

"If you are respectful to other people..."

For me and everyone I know, neither of these has been difficult.

[Mark Stahlke]

Here is Information Bulletin HQ-IB-012-2010 (PDF) for DHS employees and contractors about photography of Federal buildings.

The abridged version:
"Furthermore, it is important to understand that this regulation does not prohibit photography by individuals of the exterior of federally owned or leased facilities from publicly accessible spaces such as streets, sidewalks, parks and plazas."

[OldCrow]

See what happens when everyone is respectful and just wants to share info on a rather important matter without name calling and massive ego attacks.

I hope we can get enough peoples input on this to be able to build a wide spread informed view of the common practices of the rights of photographers.

Keep em coming! Thanks for the great posts so far guys!

[Paul Ewins]

Oh dear, the reason all of those photographers rights web pages came into existence was because people who were obeying the law and not creating a nuisance were being hassled by people in authority (cops etc.) or people who imagine they have authority (security guards, nosy neighbours etc.). If being polite solved the problem of overzealous people ordering you about when they have no right to then this subject wouldn't have come up in the first place.

[OldCrow]

Oh dear, the reason all of those photographers rights web pages came into existence was because people who were obeying the law and not creating a nuisance were being hassled by people in authority (cops etc.) or people who imagine they have authority (security guards, nosy neighbours etc.). If being polite solved the problem of overzealous people ordering you about when they have no right to then this subject wouldn't have come up in the first place.

Yes there have been people that were doing the right thing that were stopped and questioned by people who were clueless. These are posted mainly for people here in America in the large cities that are not too sure of what is allowed on the transit systems in place.

There have been a string of posts on a few of the photography forums of photographers being arrested for taking photos, which was not the case. The photographers in question were trespassing on private property and were asked to leave. They then acted in very rash and disrespectful ways and subsequently ended up under arrest.

People with a badge, even if its plastic will always question things that they are not familiar to, this is part of life. Being that our photography has become a part of history to most people and the days of large format and tripods in the press and most photography for that matter have faded into something made for books and movies, we will be questioned in both good and bad ways by people. If you can handle the moments of irritation by those people that are uncertain over what we are doing and if it is allowed with respect to them on a basic level, then nothing shall be pressed and the situation will not become heated.

Like I said, this is just intended to inform some people of the basic rules and regulations that are currently in place. I do not make any claims on wether or not we are still going to be approached and questioned by people who feel they have the authority to do so.

[Steve Smith]

I do not make any claims on wether or not we are still going to be approached and questioned by people who feel they have the authority to do so.

I personally think that the number of times this occurs is going to reduce in the future. There have been a few cases of harassment both here and in the US which have received quite a bit of media attention. In all the cases I can remember, the police or security ended up apologising. Here in the UK, police forces have issued guidelines to their officers as it is not good for their public relations for them to be seen hassling people who are doing something lawful.

I think it just needs a few more high profile cases and perhaps a couple of lawsuits and it will all become a thing of the past.

It is also wise to be aware that although you might hear about half a dozen cases of harassment, you don't hear about the millions of cases where someone photographs in public without any incident. People tend not to make posts on websites such as "I was in New York city yesterday and took a photograph of the Empire State Building. I can't believe that no one stopped me to ask what I was doing or threw me in jail. Are they implying that my photography is no good or has no artistic merit?"

There have been a string of posts on a few of the photography forums of photographers being arrested for taking photos, which was not the case..

That is correct. You can only be arrested on suspicion of carrying out something illegal (or an arrestable offence as it is known here). You don't have to be guilty to be arrested but the officer must have reasonable suspicion.


Steve.

[OldCrow]

It is also wise to be aware that although you might hear about half a dozen cases of harassment, you don't hear about the millions of cases where someone photographs in public without any incident. People tend not to make posts on websites such as "I was in New York city yesterday and took a photograph of the Empire State Building. I can't believe that no one stopped me to ask what I was doing or threw me in jail. Are they implying that my photography is no good or has no artistic merit?"

That has been a major part of my thinking. There are a great number of people that would like to wave flags and scream out of the general fear of the worst. Yet we have to take into consideration the devastatingly large number of photos taken every single second world wide. We hear of the cases of the worst, simply because they go very against the grain of the common practices. No one is going to scream about a photographer being approached to be questioned about the type of camera it is, or to have someone express that they simply think its cool to see someone shooting in a different format then digital. That is not news worthy.

We also have to concern ourselves with the large number of false stories that are shifting through the internet, as well as the false claims of wrongful arrest in attempts to sue for financial gains by unscrupulous people. We have to as a whole just try to wade through the annoyance of being approached by the authorities that are unclear on the current laws pertaining to photography in public places, truly public spaces (not private space that is opened to the public to use at the owner discretion.).

We have to understand that raising the issue to a shouting match and stomping our feet as a communal whole is only going to create a delay in allowing public photography to return to the place it was prior to all the seemingly blow out of proportion securities acts that have been invoked since the events a decade ago.

I am not alluding to anyone being a push over when they are in their legal right, but sometimes it is better to turn the other cheek and respect that not everyone is aware of what is right or wrong. No photo is worth the aggravation of being arrested or threatened with arrest.

[Steve Smith]

sometimes it is better to turn the other cheek and respect that not everyone is aware of what is right or wrong. No photo is worth the aggravation of being arrested or threatened with arrest.

Some people are not good at standing up for their rights even if they know they are right - and there is no shame in that as we are all different. It is up to the rest of us to assert our rights on their behalf. Hopefully the message will get through.

Further to my (and your) comments about the number of photographers being hassled compared to the number of photographs taken - I think the same can be said for police officers (and probably security guards). For every ignorant police officer, there are thousands more who do know their jobs and are fair and reasonable.


Steve.