Archaic/Proto Euryscope?

[Colin Myers]

Steven, interesting to see your "Time Line"
I have another bigger Euryscope, which I have always regarded as being a series1V lens although it bears no marking to support this line of thought.
At serial # 32215, it does shorten up your line by some 318 numbers.
Hope this helps develop things.
p.s. this is a very fine lens with superb glass, a full set of waterhouse stops in the original wallet and what appears to be the original front cap. Rather reminisent of my old grandmothers biscuit barrel lid, with a large central knob.
Colin

[Steven Tribe]

2193X II (mentioned in VM)
22204 III
22436 C
22510 5
22646 III 5
22968 3
25212 1
26032 1
29623 4
32215 Euryscope 6
32533 Euryscope 2

[cdholden]

As I read this thread again to catch up on recent posts, I see we get into the "named" lenses. I get to contribute another two cents. I don't have it in front of me, so no photos at this time.
I have a Portrait Euryscop 4a (identified in later catalogs as Series III but not on this one) with serial number 31,2xx. I don't recall the last two digits. This places its date of manufacture in early 1886. The 4a coincides with later catalogs showing this FL to be around 11". It has a slot for waterhouse stops. It is lacking the original flange, but the skilled hands and minds at S.K. Grimes have made one for me. It also has a much darker color than others I've seen. The darkest Euryscop I've ever seen, as a matter of fact. This also adds to earlier posts:

<snip>
the Euryscopes which were sorted into series (after about 1885)
<snip>

How much later? When do the "series" markings begin? Not on this one in early 1886.

<snip>
the number could refer to the number of the lens
<snip>

<snip>
I've read they started using the Euryscop name around serial number 30,000.
<snip>

<snip>
One wonders where the "real" Series III f4.5 Portrait Euryscop fits in. The oldest of these I have has a serial No. in the 36000 range -much later. It would be interesting if someone had older Portait Euryscops to see how they all fit in this series.
<snip>

I have another bigger Euryscope, which I have always regarded as being a series1V lens although it bears no marking to support this line of thought.
At serial # 32215, it does shorten up your line by some 318 numbers.

Tim,
Does your Portrait Euryscop say "Series III" on it? Mine does not. I'm not trying to go off topic from the older ones, but this is all good data in the Euryscop family history.

Chris

[Steven Tribe]

2193X II (mentioned in VM)
22204 III
22436 C
22510 5
22646 III 5
22968 3
25212 1
26032 1
29623 4
312xx 4a (identified as a F4.5 "series III" size 4a)
32215 Euryscope 6
32533 Euryscope 2

"darker color" is this glass hue or brass finish?

This early appearance of the F4.5 could explain why they are called 1a, 2a.......8a. Otherwise, they would be confused with the proto Euryscopes/RR with their 1,2 etc.

[Tim Deming]

Chris,

My oldest Portrait Euryscop (ser # ~36,xxx) does say "SERIES III" on it, as well as the number ("3A" I think). So, the Series designation was included by then, if not earlier. For completeness, I will get the full serial # when I get home tonight.

2193X II (mentioned in VM)

Steven,

perhaps you want to add that this series II was a f4.0 lens so it doesnt get confused with the others?

The brass color of my euryscops is all over the place. The darker ones appear to be so due to aging/environment. My cleanest lenses are light golden brassy.

cheers

Tim

[goamules]

Steven, it would be best to break your list into colums, with Speed, Serial, Engraving, etc. Then you could find out exactly when they started using the word "Euryscop", when portrait models came about, etc. For example:

Speed / Serial / Engraved with Name? / Engraved Series number? / Engraved Size number? /

F6 / 29,222 / No name / No series / 4
F6 / 30,000 / Euryscop/ No series/ 4
F6 / 31,111 / Euryscop/ III/ 4
F6 / 31,222 / Euryscop/ Series IV/ 3

If you hosted the table on a website, it wouldn't bounce this thread to the top every time you find one.

[cdholden]

"darker color" is this glass hue or brass finish?

darker brass finish

This early appearance of the F4.5 could explain why they are called 1a, 2a.......8a. Otherwise, they would be confused with the proto Euryscopes/RR with their 1,2 etc.

I think the "a" nomenclature was to differentiate the offerings within its own Portrait Euryscop family, not from other Euryscop options. 3a has a longer focal length than 3, 4a longer than 4, etc.
It is clear that the "Series" term was in use by 1890. In reading page 6 from the 1890 catalog at http://www.antiquecameras.net/1890lenscatalogue.html (Thanks Dan!) there is no reference to "Series" yet, only "Portrait Euryscop" vs "Portrait Objectiv" (petzval, now called First Series).
The date at the bottom of this Official Report is May of 1886, around the same time as my lens was produced, possibly before "Series" became a classification.
It also looks like Voigtlander bet the farm on this new "Euryscop" name: Euryscop, Portrait Euryscopes, Rapid and Extra Rapid Euryscopes, Wide Angle and Rapid Wide Angle Euryscopes, Quick Wide Angle Euryscop.
I'm starting to feel like Forrest Gump is telling me about all the ways he can cook with shrimp.

I agree that a table should be kept/hosted elsewhere so I don't keep bumping this every time I decide to post an observation.
*bump*

[Steven Tribe]

"Steven,

perhaps you want to add that this series II was a f4.0 lens so it doesnt get confused with the others?"

Tim, I asumed that a no. 21,93X called a Series II by VM is so early that it was only called this because of a "II" engraving. I understand that the construction of the later series II - from around 1890 - would have required the new glass which was just coming on the market at this time and not available back in the 21,000 - 22,000period.

[Steven Tribe]

Checking the layout of the modified rear design of Dallmeyer's Petzval I CCHarrison's Petzval article, I rediscovered this:


"Hermann Wilhelm Vogel wrote in his book, The Progress of Photography Since the Year 1879;

"Voigtlander's new Portrait Lens.—This has a front combination similar to the old Petzval. But the back combination consists of two single lenses cemented, by which the reflection of light occurring in the old form with separated lenses is avoided. The focus of these lenses is relatively shorter than that of the old form with similar opening. For instance, Voigtlander's C lens, by substituting the new back combination, has its focus shortened from 10 inches to 7 1/2 inches, thus increasing the illumination in the proportion 9:16. The new back combinations may be bought separately, so as to be used with any lenses by the same maker. We thus have the power to shorten or lengthen the focus, and correspondingly increase or lessen the light at will, by using the new form of back combination.""

Could this be the source of serial number 22436 labelled C.

There will be a new interesting addition soon.

[Tim Deming]

Hi Steven,

thanks for this info. I think you found the "link" between the Petzvals and the Euryscop lenses. Also explains some of the vague references (in the VM I think) to later Petzval's made by Voigtlander with cemented rear groups.

FYI, in case you missed them, 2 additional "C" lenses sold recently on eb@y:

#22131 and #22416

sadly, not to me!

cheers

Tim