Interior church shot-need help

[Kirk Gittings]

IME that helps boost shadow detail in contrasty scenes. IME this shot needs to control highlights=ample exposure and minus dev. as Steve suggested.

[Greg Blank]

I made 9 - 7 minute exposures on provia 4x5, 3 brackets per movement across about a 180 field of view using a 65mm Lens- several years back. The interior was the Hippodrome in Baltimore, the results were published in Baltimore Magazine- under the heading of "Return Engagement". I counted the time out verbally as 1 mississippi - I forgot my watch. I think I used a 87B to subdue the yellow incandescent cast.

Black and white should be a piece of cake.

[Steve Gledhill]

Terry,

Over the last several years I've taken many church and cathedral interiors as well as other historic buildings with the same inherent subject brightness range challenges. And I have learned some very valuable lessons about the capability of film when coupled with a subsequent digital workflow of scanning and photoshop. The most valuable lesson is that film has a huge capacity to capture a very wide subject brightness range; more than you are likely to encounter inside any church, even from brightly lit windows to under the pews - and retaining detail in both. My methodology is simple. Deep shadows on III. Let the highlights fall where they will. Normal development in XTOL 1+2; in my case 400Tmax, 9 minutes, 24C, continuous agitation. No development adjustments, + or -. This gives negatives which with a reasonable scanner (V700 in my case) pick up all shadow detail and all highlight detail. To make the best use of the file you produce you do need to have invested some time in how best to utilise photoshop - but that's the case with every tool on the planet. But you will have captured all of the detail you could ever need.

Mike Rosenberg was good enough to refer you to my website earlier in this thread. I suggest you take a look at this link and this this link which take you to Cathedrals and Churches and to a historic house I recently photographed for the National Trust. In every case the photographs are taken with the available light - almost always natural light from windows. I never use light introduced by myself - no flash, no floods.

And I have never used a filter in any of these photographs.

All the best for your project. You never know, you might start to enjoy that type of photography. I never though I would, until I tried it!

[PS - Lovely Saltaire photo Joanna.]

[Joanna Carter]

Hi Louie and thanks for the kind comments.

The brightest highlight that you need to worry about in this image is probably the reflections on the organ pipes, but I would also measure the bright areas on the walls next to the light fixtures and the lights in the chandelier.

In this case, I was definitely wanting to capture the texture in the window glass and, ignoring the point sources of the interior lighting, the windows were the brightest part of the image. However, I did measure all the points that you mention, as part of the assessment of the whole scene.

Having made the measurements, then compare the exposures required for the brightest highlights rendered as Zone VI, and the deepest shadows rendered as Zone III. If you are lucky, you can capture that range in one exposure, perhaps with N- development to compress the range.

For darkroom printing, I would happily meter the highlights for Zone VIII; two stops output range would be very difficult to achieve with such a wide range of input levels. For scanning, we have the luxury of being able to accept highlights up to Zone X and, depending on how careful you are with the over-exposure part of the calculation, you can pull detail from Zone II shadows.

A trick that Fred Picker talks about in his book 'The Fine Print' is to superimpose two exposures on the same sheet of film. The first exposure is with the interior lights turned off and using only window light. Then, without moving the camera, recock the shutter and do a second, shorter exposure with the lights on.

Certainly an option but, with this shot, the exposure was around the 1/2 second mark anyway.

With buildings where the interior is darker, in comparison with the window light, I would tend to try and shoot at either the beginning or end of the day, when the contrast between interior and exterior light levels is less.

Either that, or buy some really big sheets of ND film to cover the windows

Give generous shadow exposure and or a reduced agitation regime of film development. N-6 is quite possible with most modern panchromatic films.

Joanna's image is quite nice but as indicated designed for a scan and that contrast does not translate to wet processed prints.

If you are saying that you can get away with N-6 development, then you this particular shot should work with metering for a darkroom print; but with darker churches, I would definitely agree with shooting when the exterior light is not so bright.

[PS - Lovely Saltaire photo Joanna.]

Thanks Steve, even I was gobsmacked with the result

[Steve Sherman]

Terry,

I can give you a few tips, but it would help to know if you are going to output digital or silver gelatin prints.

Regards,

Mike

As Michael said, we all need to know what your final output will be.

If you are scanning and adjusting in PS then I check to the others. If your final output is wet processed silver gelatin than I can share with you how to extract the most information in both the shadows and highlights as I have done this type work extensively.

Cheers

[Ken Lee]

Another option is to place the shadows well into Zone III or IV, and let the high values fall on Zone XIV or higher. Develop in Divided Pyrocat HD and add contrast to taste when scanning or printing. You'll be surprised that there is complete detail all along the scale. The photo will look as though you brought in several trucks of cinema lights.

[Tony Evans]

Steve G.
Sheer inspiration! Thank you.

[Terry Hull]

Many thanks to all of you! My takeways from this:

1. I need to "Gobsmack," which with a fair share of divine intervention, may help me get to a beautiful photo like Joanna Carter's post!
2. Stick with what a know from outdoor photography.
3. It also occurs to me that scanning does permit some great results that may not be available traditionally. As yet I don't have a large format scanner, and am waiting to see if the 5X7 Chamonix I just bought works out for me, and if so find a reasonably priced scanner.

[mandoman7]

I understand the new led flashlights can be a big help when shooting large spaces, used in the "light painting" mode. There's one with 8 AA batteries that can really flood a scene with light. If you can get your exposures to be long enough, it might be an easy way to reduce contrast.

Otherwise, I've come to accept and at times prefer the look of slightly overblown highlights in a room, as the effort to compress and control the tones can sometimes lead to a fairly dull overall look. Retaining detail in the shadow and highlights may or may not, in other words, be what you want in the overall look of the image.

[jp]

I shoot it with tmax film, exposing for the shadows and developing in a compensating developer (pmk is what I'm familiar with) or weak xtol developer as has been suggested by others.

I'd only add that you make sure your lens is super clean. Not using filters helps with this. You might get bloom or flare from from the lights if your lens is dirty or less contrasty than the scene itself.

I wouldn't be afraid to have some people in a photo too, even if they are blurred or hard to identify. A church is a place for people to congregate and worship. To not have any people makes it seem to me like it's missing something, regardless of how beautiful the photo or historical architecture is.