Need something that's about 50% of Beyond the Zone System

[Herb Cunningham]

depending on which scanning software you use, some have densitometers in the software so you can adapt that to the BTZS or the Zone System, personally, St Ansel did not use BTZS and I don't find it very interesting.

[sully75]

I've been thinking about trying the two stage d-23. Currently have been using D-76.

I'm using an Epson 4870 with the Epson software. I tried the vuescan demo and didn't really get it. The epson software is very frustrating to use and I think a big part of the problem.

Thanks for the compliments Jay!

And thanks for all the advice.

Paul

[Ken Lee]

"I've been thinking about trying the two stage d-23."

How do you determine exposure and development ? That's more important than choice of developer: It's around 90% of that 50% you're looking for

"The epson software is very frustrating to use and I think a big part of the problem."

You might find this brief article helpful. See Scanning Tips (with EPSON Scan Software)

[Jay DeFehr]

Ken,

Having looked at Paul's images, I don't think he has a problem with exposure or development. He's using mostly D-76 1+1, and getting very good results. Where there are problems (that I can see), I attribute them to flare, and/or challenging lighting conditions. I think the use of a good lens shade might eliminate a good part of his "problem". I think a soft working developer, like D23, is a reasonable choice for his working methods, but given he's getting excellent results from his current methods, I'm not sure it's worth the transition issues.

[jp]

I think your flickr stuff looks good, especially for someone not likeing their scanning software. I like the epson software that came with my v700. I put it in pro mode, move the light and dark limit sliders to their extreme, move the histogram bottom sliders to contain the image data and I then scan as 24bit color. In gimp, I then apply a slight curve to it to make it look normal, desaturate it, and sometimes put a gentle warm tone on it. You might have perfect negatives but aren't getting the scan perfect too. I do both scanning negatives and printing on vc paper; whatever the end goal dictates.

I'm not into the sensitometry work. I think consistency is more important than testing.

I've found what provides good results is to be very consistent in the darkroom; always using the same temperatures, dilutions, agitation. Stick to no more than 1-2 B&W films and no more than 1-2 developers. Maybe just use one combination for a while to get really nailed down the way you like. For 35mm, 120, 4x5, & 8x10 I use TMY2 and for 4x5 & 8x10 I also use fomapan100 because it's a lot different than tmy2. The fomapan had some qc issues in 120 format last year and I like finer t-grain for 35mm. For the past year, I've used nothing but PMK and Xtol. (d76 is good, but xtol is similar and tiny bit better. I used d76 for about 15 years) So I'm using 2 films and 2 developers; my self imposed limit. I'd love to play with more, but I'd be playing with film rather than making consistent photos.

I use xtol for low-mid contrast scenes and PMK for mid-high contrast scenes. The nature of pyro developers gets you a big dynamic range that makes scanning/printing easy for high contrast scenes without needing spot meters and zone systems. Essentially without any math, your highlights are safe with PMK if you expose for the shadows or expose otherwise normally.

[sanking]

I'm using an Epson 4870 with the Epson software. I tried the vuescan demo and didn't really get it. The epson software is very frustrating to use and I think a big part of the problem.

Paul

Paul,

I owned an Epson 4870 at one time and used it with the Epson software. It worked perfectly fine with B&W negatives IMO, and I still use the software with an Epson V700. You probably just need to invest the time and learn to use the software.

Sandy King

[Bill Burk]

Paul,

There is the "other" 50% of the Zone system. Were you wondering about that at all?

You know the part where you use the spotmeter at the scene to determine the important shadow, important highlight, value you want to place, where the other values fall, determine N number, literal and stylized representations, etc.?

My favorite "pamphlet" for that... Zone System Manual How To Previsualize Your Pictures by Minor White. My copy from 1963 is only 111 pages.

If you've already made up your mind about the back-end processes... Then you can skip over all the practical but arguably distracting testing. The booklet now is 71 pages - much of it devoted to encouraging you to depart from normal.

[Ed Richards]

Are you printing or scanning the negatives?

[Bob McCarthy]

I have found, when your scanning in B&W on a capable scanner, the system is very easy.

Expose so shadows are lit as you envision,

Develop in a good standard developer (I use D23) with a standard time, let the highlights fall where they will.

My scanner can easily cover the differences unless the light is EXTREME, and then 2 bath D23 works like a champ.

Don't need no stinkin' + or -

Though I should add, JB Harlin has convinced me to test Pyrocat hd. His negs are always frikin beautifully exposed, but he is not scanning.

Bob

[atlcruiser]

"The Negative" should give you most all the info you want/need. I looked into BTZS for a while but it is not for me....I see it as complicated and i have not wanted to spend the amount of time/resources needed to get it set up. I agree that it is a great system once it is set up.

I am new to LF but i have been usng some variant of the zone system for a while.. It really does not need to be that complicated. At times I think folks dedicate more time to the theory than to the practice of photography. That is not directed at any one person here!

I spend a bit of time setting my ASA when using a new film; test shots etc... then I scour the web for info and develop in rodinal 1:50 and determine what ASA/times give me what I like. Most of the info I need for a neg I get off of the light table.

I spot meter the darkest area with detail then the brightest area and figure out how many stops are between them. That determines dev time...more often than not I just guess I close down two steps from my initial reading and I am good to go.

Of course this is not perfect but neither am i. The above works for about 90% of the situations I get involved with.

My goal is to have fun and learn. I take detailed notes then review each negative and try to wring out of it a bit more knowledge for the next time.