Question for fine art pros. . .a little off beat

[Joshua L. Slocum]

Okay, I'm going to lose my usual cool demeanor and shout here for a second, so please pardon me: I'M NOT PLANNING ON TAKING PHOTOGRAPHS OF ANY CORPSES I'M NOT PLANNING ON TAKING PHOTOGRAPHS OF ANY CORPSES

Is that plain enough English for everyone here???? Let me refer you to my original post: "The final product is not going to be a series of corpse shots - I'm not envisioning anything that literal." What is so damned difficult to understand about that? Why all the criticism for something I NEVER SAID?

I hope you'll excuse this temper outburst, but the responses here have ranged from the irrelevant to the outright derisive (with a few exceptions), all over some idea of what I'm attempting to do that has nothing to do with what I posted. My desire to watch the undertaking process comes from wanting to observe the process first-hand, to be in the right mental space for this project. What will the photographs be, you ask? I DON'T KNOW. They could take the form of cheesy butterfly shots, self-portraits, street photography- anything. . .who knows. . but they won't be photos of dead people! Is it that hard for all of you to believe that I might have a little more going on upstairs than the hackneyed, shock-effect images you seem to eager to attribute to me? Has none among you ever immersed yourself in different milieu simply to gain a perspective before embarking on a project, photographic, literary or otherwise? It's called research .

Moreover, some of these responses have been pretty much personal attacks, so I'm going to answer in kind: Andy: You insult me. You attribute to me some kind of Mapplethorpe-Madonnaesque desire to shock for no apparent reason. Whatever in the world gives you the idea that I'm that personally and intellectually shallow? You don't even know me, or my project, nor can you apparently read either, because you've made up a whole persona for me and my work that, for the life of me, I can see NO inspiration for in my original post. You must be incredibly jaded to want to see that kind of base motivation in someone's work you've never even seen - someone you don't even know. Believe it or not, Mr. Howell, there are working photographers left in the world who derive inspiration from some place other than propagandistic, shock-style commercialism. Your rant is misdirected - find some uneducated and self important 20 year old to spew your criticism at; I'm sure they'll appreciate your advice on their crass agendas. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but you impugned my character pretty offensively in your response.

To Simon: You are absolutely right; arrogance is not a foot in the door when you want to get close to subjects. I apologize for coming off that way - I didn't mean to say that I should have carte blanche to run roughshod over my subjects in the real world, all in the glorious name of art. What I did mean was that I was hoping that other working artists would understand the sometimes vague and driven ideas that set a project in motion, and wouldn't hold me to some moralistic standard of justification for my work. We all have to fight that kind of stuff when Rudy Giuliani pulls funding from the Brooklyn Museum of Art. . I was hoping I could reserve the soft-pedal humanistic approach for my foot-in-the-door with my subjects, and get down to brass tacks with fellow photographers. Anyone who sits in front of other working artists and photographers and claims that the sole reason they do their work is out of compassion and philanthropy is either lying, or not a very driven person, aesthetically or intellectually. I'm not going to misrepresent my motivations - they're entirely personal. I'm sorry if that's too candid, but it's true. That does NOT, however, mean that I think I'm the best or most important artist on the face of the earth, that my work is necessarily even that interesting to anyone else, or that people should bow down and scrape before me, begging to have their photograph taken. I may be self-absorbed when it comes to my work, but I'm not a delusional jerk. I guess I just wanted to start some honest dialogue with others on this forum about the artistic process, and what I got was a bunch of flak that seems to reveal more about the posters than it does about me. I'm sure I'm going to get flamed for this (because it's honest and on the mark, I think), but before any of you hit the "submit" button, please take a minute to ask yourself why you're more inclined to malign me and my motives than you are to actually offer me the help I asked for. If I were such a self-important ass, I never would have asked ANYONE for help on this. I offered up the beginnings of my project here in good faith guys. . .

[Erik Ryberg]

Hi Joshua,

I think most of us got the point the first time. It sounds like a great idea to me and I bet you can pull it off but it seems to me you are going to need to know the family. I just can't see any other way. If you wait twenty years and have enough friends somebody with a sympathetic family will pass away. Whether you take photos of the corpse or not is irrelevant because everyone will suspect that you intend to in some fashion. So I would just flat out say you might but that photos of the corpse are not going to be the point of this project. You also should formulate what exactly you want to show a little better, and maybe create some similar images of similar things so people know your style and what you are getting at. People might trust you more if you approach it that way and have a developed project in mind.

[Jacque Staskon]

Josh, after reading and re-reading your original question it seems pretty clear that you are trying to answer some personal questions here. Thats good, that is what art is all about. First I'll tell you a little story, (boring probably but hopefully helpful). when I was a young photo student one of my professors asked us to photograph something taboo. Mostly the images shown in critique were sexual in nature. Mine however involved the care and feeding and killing of animals. I followed the entire process of how we as a society view eating beef. ( I then became a vegetarian). Anyway, getting into the calving and raising of the cattle was no problem. It was when I wanted to get into the processing of the the cattle and to see the butchering and packaging that I ran into problems. It wasn't because of what I was shooting, it was more that the people involved did not want others to see what they do. They were afraid of being seen as unclean? That may not be the right word, but they seemed to be afraid of what others would think. So I understand your delima. I solved mine by becoming friends with those involved. From the cowboy to the auctioneer, to the processing plant manager all the way down to the butcher at the local market. I was not trying to make a statement about beef eating, more just answering questions I had about what it takes to bring beef to market. I think if you approach it this way you will be able to gain the access you need. Funeral director,salesman, mortician,pastor,(priest) etc. Since your idea involves no specific person but the process, that is where I would start. Interesting concept, I wish you well.

[steve levine]

Some things are sacred,and private.This sounds like you are fascinated with the dead.To photograph this procedure would be an invasion of privacy, of the worst kind.Not to mention,who wants to view this ??

[Joshua L. Slocum]

Jacque and Eric: Thank you both, gentleman, you really got the point of my post, and I appreciate it. You, Steve, were particularly helpful - while my "personal questions" are different than yours, your experience, in form mirrors the sort of process that I'm trying to get going. Thank you again!

Steve: I hope you feel like a first class horse's ass. Can you read English my friend? Why does everyone here continue to believe I'm trying to photograph corpses, even though I've said specifically several times that I'm not??? If I were, believe me, I would tell you. .. .what do I have to be afraid of here? Furthermore. . .did I ask you for an opinion on the marketability of these phantom images you seem to have dreamed up? Even if I were photographing the dead, Steve, I frankly don't care if you or anyone else is interested in seeing it. Squeamish/ ethically horrified at such a thought. . .? THEN DON'T LOOK. Gosh, I shouldn't even have brought this up. . now I'm sure you or someone else is going to accuse me of photographing AND molesting corpses now!

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

Josh I HEAR YOU. YOU are not going to photograph corpses. I suggest a University Medical School that deals with corpses that have been donated for use by medical students and mortuary science students. I know from having spoke to many medical students that they revere the memory of these people for having donated their bodies so that others could learn from them. If it is your intention as well to learn from them, then it seems that would be the place to go. Kevin

[Larry Cuffe]

I think the response you have got already should provide you with some insight! I've heard a mortician, who is now an author, called Thomas Lynch speak on the subject; it might be worth your while geting hold of his book "The Undertaking". There are problems specificaly with the role of observer in this context. Perhaps you need a more active role in the process so that your acting within perimiter as it were. A sugestion get a job as hospital porter or as hearse driver or as salesman for funeral products. George Orwells "Down and out in Paris and London" is strong because he was in context.