Need Grubb Lens Expertise

[Fionnbharr]

Hi Stephen,
I have 2719. It is simply engraved "C Grubb Patent 2719".
If you'd like an image let me know.
Fionnbharr

[Steven Tribe]

Hi Stephen,
I have 2719. It is simply engraved "C Grubb Patent 2719".
If you'd like an image let me know.
Fionnbharr

pgk has made the last revised list so he can edit it - I would have to go back to earlier list. We already have 2719 in the list but without details.

[pgk]

Thanks Stephen. I have a big revision coming up - the V&A hold some more too (ex-RP collection), but information is scant so far.

[Scott Sharp]

I have a Howard Grubb Dublin Aplanatic Doublet number 5290. It has block lettering on the barrel with a slot for Waterhouse stops.

It has a 12-inch focal length comparing it to my known 11-inch Dallmeyer Rapid Rectilinear. If the Dallmeyer RR lens is f/8 then
this Grubb Aplanatic lens is slower, projecting a slightly darker image.

Reading the earlier posts I ran across this: "aplanatic doublet (which Grubb claimed was purloined by Dallmeyer re. the RR!) which appears to be very rare."

Does this mean the Aplanatic Doublet is similar to the Rapid Rectilinear with four elements in two groups? And are the two lens groups symmetrical?

Great thread, looking forward to any information.

[Steven Tribe]

The Lens VM talks about this double aplanatic - that is, two single aplanatic lenses mounted very much like the Ross Symmetrical and the Dallmeyer RR. I don't think there are any other double aplanatic lenses in the current list. I was beginning to think that there must have a misunderstanding about it's real existance! It is certainly a late production after manufacture was moved to the UK. INteresting to compare performance of these Ross, Grubb and Dallmeyer versions!

[pgk]

Actually there are other examples I believe, engraved either Patent Doublet or Aplanatic Doublet. I have 2215 which is engraved 'Grubb's Patent Doublet' and I suspect this to be two patent lenses effectively mounted in the same way as a Dallmeyer RR. Whilst Thomas Grubb did patent his doublet lens, later on was scathing about patents (as referenced in a letter quoted in a book on the Grub's history). It looks as though lenses similar to those covered by Thomas's patent had actually been produced by others before his patent - there were letters in the Photographic Journal to this effect. And Thomas complained in exactly the same way as those opposing his patent had, about Dallmeyer's! It looks as though the Grubb's continued to build lenses despite the Dallmeyer patent and engraved them with their own name and 'patent' too - I doubt that this was challenged.

Unfortunately the information about the Grubb's serial numbers and their dates is too scant to pin down what was actually produced when so far. I've been trying to figure out when Howard's name appeared on Grubb lenses but I suspect that it was well before the move away from Dublin (as some have Watson's name on as the retailer this would suggest 1883 onwards). However my guess is that Grubb photographic lenses effectively ceased production during the 1880/90s at the latest. As I have previously stated, I think that the Grubb's probably built photographic lenses to order and customer's specification which is problematic in that their designs vary substantially, their serial numbers aren't easy to tie down timewise and so far I have found a that there seems to be a gap between 3,500+ and 5,000 (Thomas and Howard's names engraved). Whether this is actual and represents any shift in production or anything is an open question. There is a lot of information to be found here: https://archive.rps.org although sifting through it is a bit clunky. Search on Grubb and many letters appear as do other interesting bits of information such as Thomas Grubb's design for a versatile camera (very messy by the look of it!).

FWIW I have so far found Howard's name on very few Grubb lenses - serial numbers suggesting only around 300 so far and 5290 is the latest I can find. The implication is that production had tailed off by the time that Howard was running things in his own name.

[Willeica]

Paul (PGK) and I have been in touch about various Grubb details. I'll try to throw in some details to provide context from a Dublin perspective. The advertisement above which carries the address 141 Leinster Road could not have appeared before 1864 when Thomas Grubb moved to that address. Around the same time, when the Great Melbourne Telescope was ordered the main part of the business moved from Canal Road to what is now known as Observatory Lane. I have not seen any evidence that photographic lenses were produced at Observatory Lane. Just after that Howard took over the business due to the failing health of Thomas. During the 1850s Thomas had been involved in disputes about lens designs and patents with various parties and Paul has sent me various documents from the RPS annals which document this. There is also some material which relates to this from a photographic society in Birmingham. Thomas Grubb made an address to the Royal Dublin Society (of which I am a member) in 1858 about his aplanatic lens design which I attach below. This a relatively brief piece which deals with the issues in broad terms. I have recently gone through the RDS archives and I cannot find any more than this.

I wonder where the details in the Lens Vademecum have come from? I suspect that a lot of the documents relating to lens types moved to St Albans (perhaps because of fear of a German invasion of Ireland) when the company went there in 1918. By that time it seems that the photographic lens business had long since disappeared and even the astronomical business had declined. The main business at that stage was periscopes for submarines and, perhaps, gun sights, but the ending of World War One caused a dilemma for the company until the alliance with Parsons led to a move to Newcastle. There is some late 20th century TV footage of a lens grinding machine from Grubb Parsons which had instructions addressed Rathmines from 1880s, presumably Observatory Lane. One might assume, therefore, that the other documentation eventually found its way to Newcastle. There is some Grubb documentation in Dunsink Observatory and in the Dublin Institute of Advance Studies. I might seek to see it some day, but I suspect that it relates to the astronomical work by the Grubbs with telescopes, coelostats (one of which was used to prove Einstein's Theory of Relativity) etc.

As for users of the Grubb lenses, there is a famous photo of College Green in Dublin taken from the Bank of Ireland building in the early 1850s which is assumed to have been taken by Grubb who as Chief Engineer to the Bank of Ireland at that stage. Carleton Watkins, whose photos of Yosemite in the 1860s led to Abraham Lincoln signing legislation to introduce the concept of national parks, is said to have used a Grubb C lens. Paul (PGK) may have evidence of other well known users.

I have Grubb 509 and 3631 in my collection. The former is from the mid 1850s and is clearly the type of lens described by Grubb at the RDS in 1858. 3631, which is smaller, seems to be the same design apart from the fact that it has no helicoid, but just a push and pull holder for washer stops. I had always assumed that it was from the early 1860s. I see some mention of 1870s for this, but somehow I think that the design would have been different at that stage. The later lenses with Howard Grubb's name on them seem to me to not be as heavily constructed as those from the time of Thomas, perhaps lending credence to the theory that some of them were manufactured elsewhere with the Grubb name being engraved on them. Howard did not seem to have the same interest in photography as his father and anything that I have found in the RDS relating to Howard and photography mainly relates to astronomical photography.

The 1858 address to the RDS is below (the uploader keeps telling me that I do not have permission to upload this document. I will try again in another post)

William

[Willeica]

Grubb 1858 address to RDS



William

[Steven Tribe]

There are two new aplanatics around. In the later smart pull-out style. I am no longer the "keeper of the list"! Paul?

3447 size C
2591 size D

[pgk]

Yes, I'd noted these two thanks Steven. The list needs updating and I'll get around to it at some point. I am now convinced that Grubb (and probably Wray in their first decade or so, even though much later into the photographic lens trade) produced lenses almost as one offs. There are very few identical Grubbs and early Wrays show substantial variation. Having read Conrad Beck's book (~1900) on lens making I do wonder just how small scale some production actually was?