When somebody asks me why I am photographing, my first response is to ask why are they asking. If they are polite about it, I will get into a (short) conversation and try to explain what I am doing and why.
If they are rude or seem to be on a power trip, as it often happens when the uniform is bigger than the person wearing it, and they keep insisting, I tell them that I do it for the same reason Mike Jagger likes pretty young women: a) because I like it, and b) because I can.
People today, seem to be more amenable to a form of life that doesn't involve fighting for what is, for the lack of better wording, 'common-sense' or 'right'.
No matter the 'authority-figures' today, people seem to have neither the will, interest, or dedication to take their case forward, to instill in the mindset of 'authority-figures' that they have to consider the 'rights' they are intruding upon of others...
Before you take me to task, consider for example, your past 'weekend', if you had one where you did not have to work a six or seven day work week...
It wasn't long ago that a work week consisted of six and seven day work weeks of ten or more hour work days.
In the 1950's, the forty hour work week still was not a way of life.
Today, opposite a large recreation site, there is a 20' x 40' sign to remind people, that reads:
If you are enjoying your weekend time away from work, thank the members of a union that had the dedication to fight for a forty hour work week.
If you lived during the time when unions were fighting for a forty-hour work week, you will readily remember the battle they fought with employers across every part of the landscape, and the terrible consequences that employers cited would befall the nation if such a ‘ridiculous’ idea became law.
Causes take time and energy, and certainly our authority-figures won't give us what is right or common-sensical if we don't take ‘them’ to task from time-to-time, or for that matter it seems we need to do this all the time these days...
My 1/20 of one cent actual cash value, worth ...
I think I will go this monday or the following on my day off and photograph with my 4x5 camera. If the ranger asks me again for a permit I will tell him that I am not in the wrong and show him that Photographer's Right paper and say that I am just taking a non professional photo and see what happens.
If the ranger is not bluffing and gives me a $175 ticket I will fight it.
Just make sure it is really "public" land, not merely on its way to becoming public by this conservation group. If it's still private it's theirs.Originally Posted by ElRooster
If it isn't public, the guards are not law enforcement but private security and therefore can't issue him a citation for disobeying the rules, they can only ask him to leave. They can charge him with trespassing if he refuses to leave though.
If it is public, park rangers, which are law enforcement officers, can't ask him to leave but can issue a citation, which can then be challenged in court. For the citation to stand, it would have to be based on the existing rule, not one made up on the spot.
Either way, they cannot confiscate his equipment (although some of them like to threaten that) and they cannot force him to destroy his images either.
This particular law is not all that complicated - knowledge really is power in this case and standing up for our rights can go a long way.
Did you ever get a response back from your request for clarification of the definition of commercial use?
Even if you didn't, the rules as you have relayed them in this thread are related to commercial uses only. Your assertion that you are not engaging in commercial activities should be all that is required to comply with that rule--there is no way to provide documentation that you are not doing something, and the burden of providing documentation is on them in any case. That means that they would have to show that you did indeed use the images commercially in order for the citation to be upheld. I'm no lawyer, but I suspect most judges are more sympathetic to a plain reading of the law, especially if you can show a good-faith effort to obtain a definition of commercial use specific enough to guide your actions.
If you are approached, just remember to be polite and do not give them cause to pile on a different charge, such as disorderly conduct. And take a friend.
Rick "who is really annoyed by cops who push their weight around unnecessarily just because they can" Denney
Robert, many many years ago (early 80s), my college photography class took a day field trip to Downtown Los Angeles for a class photo assignment. One thing we were told. Do not photograph; Outside Federal Buildings, Banks, Jewelry Stores. The reason given, potential use of images for future criminal activities, "casing the joints". Nobody in the class pushed the envelope to see what would happens.
My photo professor (he died in 1990 at the age of 60+, so this was a while back -- probably late 50's, early 60's) photographed a policeman talking to a pimp in Oakland and got himself busted. The only reason he did not spend all night in jail is because he called up a friend high up in the city gov't.
Turns out the pimp was paying off the cop, so even if photographing in a public place was perfectly "legal", sometimes that does not matter at all. I don't think he knew exactly what was going down at the time he took the photo, and he told the story as a precautionary tale.
This was a business park, residential area in Palo Alto, California. Nowhere near Federal, State, Banks or Jewelry stores. Many of the buildings were quite new and empty.
I understand the "casing out" idea. I was photographing in Stanford Shopping center or near there once. During the holiday season. My subjects were a Salvation army bell ringer and his older brother. I got a little 2-3 year boy giving change while the two watched. Once I was done, a security guard told me that he would let it slide and why it's not permitted. The shopping center was private property as well.
But, I got a wonderful image! My instructor Lester Dowling at Foothill College praised the photo and gave me an A++. He instructed me to give the print to the Salvation Army and to the two Bell Ringers.That helped me down this wonderful path called photography!
The law is actually very clear on this as the laws go: if you stand on public ground and not breaking any other ordinances in the process (such as stopping the traffic and such), you can take a picture of anything that is clearly visible from that point. The only exceptions that I've heard of are certain military installations and using telephoto lenses and/or other special equipment to gain the view you would not otherwise have, mostly as a safeguard of people's reasonable expectation of privacy.
A jewelry store or a bank that chose to make their storefronts visible in public in order to attract customers have no such expectations and neither do the cops, since they are public employees doing their work in public by default. They may not like it, they will try to prevent or stop you, but in the end, there is nothing they can (legally) do.
There were several relatively high-profile cases over the last couple of years in which some photographers decided to push the envelope. They got arrested and roughed up a bit, but they sued and they all won their respective lawsuits to the tune of $20-30K each.
It all comes down to your knowledge of your rights and the law, as well as your willingness to push for it. Personally, if someone ruins my mood (and therefore my photo shoot), I will make up for it by standing up for my rights.
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