KB Canham Comes Through - 8x10 T Max Available

[Michael Kadillak]

I'm not sure how this works. If you get 105% of the volume of ordered film will it all get filled? Or is ordering closed after 100% volume? Or closed after a certain date?

We have no maximum quantity on this deal only a minimum that Kodak requested to proceed forward. The only restriction we have is that we need to turn this around on or before the middle of January 2011. That is why I decided that I would assist Keith in this regard as I did not want this to languish to fall short of the goal and not come to fruition. That is completely unacceptable as far as I am concerned. Keith has a discount coupon on his website that needs to accompany payment but Keith will provide the details for payment and shipping shortly.

As it stands right now we have the volume to proceed with the 8x10 TMY deal and that is great news.

A personal thanks to all of the great LF photographers that have stepped up and made contact. You are the BEST!

When we get this deal in the completed column I am open to kicking other formats in the ass to get them moving. Suggestions?

Onward

[letchhausen]

All other formats, and film in general, will follow the same trajectory as the users of them inevitably migrate to digital. Tilting at windmills aside, every sane person knows this is true. Saying so doesn't make me a naysayer, but it might be in poor taste to say something unpleasant everyone knows, but no one wants to acknowledge, and for that, I apologize.

I would hardly say this is something that "is true" or something "everyone knows". The sheer amount of LF'ers that I know just at school here in Seattle, have met around the country and number of alt process workshops etc makes me think that the idea that migrating to digital is "inevitable" is along the same lines that LP's were finished back in the 80's with the advent of the compact disc. And look now there are more turntables and LP's sold all the time. In fact most indie bands offer their albums on LP and download only, bye bye compact disc. Yes, analog is a niche market but somehow manages to survive. I love film and (though I doubt I'll live to see it happen) if it's gone I'll be coating glass plates. And you know what? There's a ton of people that will be doing the same. Yes, it's gonna be small but still out there. But I don't see film going away, just a smaller number of choices.

I find this whole thread inspring in terms of watching a community work together with corporate interest to make something happen. Far from grumbling in my view. Almost makes me want to shoot with TMY but I'm a Tri-X guy.....

[Jay DeFehr]

letchhausen,

Don't misunderstand me, I love film and use a lot of it, including TMY-2, in 8x10, which is my favorite film. None of the above changes the market or the mechanisms within it. Your analogy of film v digital compared to vinyl v CD is innocent of the manufacturing distinction. Pressing vinyl albums is almost ideally suited to low volume production. Film is a far different case.

Whatever your personal experience, it suffers all the statistical problems of a small sample. If every other person you know used TMY-2 in 8x10 it would have no practical influence on its production or availability.

I'm sorry, but the Emperor is clearly butt-naked.

[Brian C. Miller]

letchhausen, the whole film production system is set up for high volume, and it starts with the base support material, i.e., the master roll of plastic film.

Minimum order is six rolls, and each roll is 1,850 meters long. There are 1,609 meters in a mile.
1,850 meters * 39 inches = 72150 inches
72150 / 10 = 7215 cross sheets
Now of course it's 8x10, the roll width is 48", but we're going to leave off some as trim.
7215 * 5 = 57,720 sheets.
Packed 10 to a box, that's 5,772 boxes.
5772 boxes * $70 = $404,040

I'm guessing that one master roll of 8x10 TMY-2 has a retail value in the $400,000 neighborhood, or 26 special order runs and some retail left over. Mr. Canham is going to be very busy with the other 25 orders.

Just because an ex-Kodak engineer in Australia built a coating machine in his garage and can produce excellent B&W, that doesn't mean that any of this can carry over to an actual substitution for major film manufacturers.

[Michael Kadillak]

letchhausen,

Don't misunderstand me, I love film and use a lot of it, including TMY-2, in 8x10, which is my favorite film. None of the above changes the market or the mechanisms within it. Your analogy of film v digital compared to vinyl v CD is innocent of the manufacturing distinction. Pressing vinyl albums is almost ideally suited to low volume production. Film is a far different case.

Whatever your personal experience, it suffers all the statistical problems of a small sample. If every other person you know used TMY-2 in 8x10 it would have no practical influence on its production or availability.

I'm sorry, but the Emperor is clearly butt-naked.

Please.....

You are precisely the type of person and attitude that keeps me cranking. Those that talk like they really have some worldly experience to share with us but come off as all talk and no action and nothing to contribute. You have few expectations and are never ever disappointed or wrong in your conclusions because you have it ALL figured out.

While you are lamenting the inevitable demise of your world or attempt to espouse some ass backward conclusion , those of us that make things happen will continue to do so and watch you in the rear view mirror until you simply fade away from view.

Now back to the topic. We have commitments in excess of what we need to make this Special Order proceed. And proceed it will. I got news for you. This film in my holders is not a statistical anomaly. It is a fact.

[Jay DeFehr]

Please.....

You are precisely the type of person and attitude that keeps me cranking. Those that talk like they really have some worldly experience to share with us but come off as all talk and no action and nothing to contribute. You have few expectations and are never ever disappointed or wrong in your conclusions because you have it ALL figured out.

While you are lamenting the inevitable demise of your world or attempt to espouse some ass backward conclusion , those of us that make things happen will continue to do so and watch you in the rear view mirror until you simply fade away from view.

Now back to the topic. We have commitments in excess of what we need to make this Special Order proceed. And proceed it will. I got news for you. This film in my holders is not a statistical anomaly. It is a fact.

Michael,

Wow. And on Christmas eve. I hope that whatever is eating at you passes, and the new year is happier than the last. Merry Christmas!

[Michael Kadillak]

Humor me. Your negativity only fires me up.

It has been an absolutely fabulous 2010 and 2011 is going to be our best year ever.

[Jay DeFehr]

Michael,

I'm happy to inspire (ignite?) you, and I wish you the best year ever.

Merry Christmas!

[letchhausen]

My comment about film not going away was in light of the fact that right now there is Kodak, Fuji, Ilford, Efke, Foma and Adox making sheet film. My guess is that the larger corporations will ditch first and that will push current customers to the smaller companies. As I said, it will be a niche market but I don't see it going away anytime soon. With People like Canham and Kadillak and people on forums like this working to make things happen I'm optimistic that whatever the production constraints, someone will manufacture a product that people want even for a niche market.

Michael and Paula are a good example of what can get accomplished when a major player ditches a product like Azo and M&P created their own silver chloride paper.
My point was merely that as long as those of us that care about producing work with these materials continue to use and buy them, they will be around. My anecdotal evidence was also supported by the number of schools offering large format classes, photographers offering LF workshops and alt process workshops, flickr sites and even the huge amount of hipster cred around Holgas (since Jack and Meg of the White Stripes had their own signature Holga and Diana cameras) and toy cameras which all point to a healty niche market for film and analog products. The amount of people on the Polaroid flickr sites buying Impossible Project materials is also a good sign that not everyone wants to shoot digital. We will continue to see younger kids wanting to get a Speed Graphic and shoot 4x5. There will always be a percentage, yes statistically small, that will want to do things differently.

So Merry xmas for those optimistic about film's future while realizing that the glory days are over but hey if you can still get Kodak to do a special order run once a year then things are good.

[Michael Kadillak]

My comment about film not going away was in light of the fact that right now there is Kodak, Fuji, Ilford, Efke, Foma and Adox making sheet film. My guess is that the larger corporations will ditch first and that will push current customers to the smaller companies. As I said, it will be a niche market but I don't see it going away anytime soon. With People like Canham and Kadillak and people on forums like this working to make things happen I'm optimistic that whatever the production constraints, someone will manufacture a product that people want even for a niche market.

Michael and Paula are a good example of what can get accomplished when a major player ditches a product like Azo and M&P created their own silver chloride paper.
My point was merely that as long as those of us that care about producing work with these materials continue to use and buy them, they will be around. My anecdotal evidence was also supported by the number of schools offering large format classes, photographers offering LF workshops and alt process workshops, flickr sites and even the huge amount of hipster cred around Holgas (since Jack and Meg of the White Stripes had their own signature Holga and Diana cameras) and toy cameras which all point to a healty niche market for film and analog products. The amount of people on the Polaroid flickr sites buying Impossible Project materials is also a good sign that not everyone wants to shoot digital. We will continue to see younger kids wanting to get a Speed Graphic and shoot 4x5. There will always be a percentage, yes statistically small, that will want to do things differently.

So Merry xmas for those optimistic about film's future while realizing that the glory days are over but hey if you can still get Kodak to do a special order run once a year then things are good.

Very well said and I completely agree. I even have a couple of plan "B"'s up my sleeve for a worse case scenario that I doubt will happen. I like to be prepared for a long and lasting relationship consuming sheet film and will accept nothing less than the best that is available.

The reward I get for working on these projects aside from insuring that they come to fruition, is getting to know the passionate photographers that are part of the solution as they are truly inspiring as to how they find a way to get it done.