A Pragmatic Kodak Thread

[Michael Kadillak]

Now that everyone has had a chance to voice their opinion relative to the notice of Kodak drawing a line in the sand relative to format and dropping anything larger than 4x5 in their T Grain line of films, I felt it appropriate to toss out some comments relative to where we are as LF and ULF photographers.

I can safely assume that the Kodak decision was driven proactively by a lack of sales volume in the larger formats which quite honestly is understandable given the realities of where we the industry and the economy are at this juncture. Sometimes these financially driven decisions are necessary to insure that the more vibrant components of the company can favorably move on. Yes, we all wish that Kodak could be more accommodating, but I don't feel it necessary to go down that road again because it is moot at this point.

A couple of things I wanted to point out. First, if 8x10 and larger are "challenged" at Kodak then one could easily assume that other manufacturers are seeing some of the same trends in sales as well. In situations like this individual corporate balance sheets drive these economic decisions. Since we know that Kodak is carrying some heavy financial baggage, we do not know where Ilford is on this issue but it is at least a bit concerning to say the least. Will Ilford or other manufacturers be the recipient of additional 8x10 film buyers that are shifting gears to what is available or will some folks dump 8x10 in favor of smaller LF formats? We do not know.

We do know that T Max 400 and 100 is a great film that many people have enjoyed using in 8x10. We also know that when competition in a particular market sector looses a player and/or a product, higher costs are possible for the remaining available product and the risk of loss for the entire format is at least mathematically increased.

In a positive and proactive mindset we also know that Kodak is not discontinuing the manufacture of T Max 400 and 100, so this is not a fatal blow by any stretch of the imagination. Those of us that want to continue to have access to 8x10 T Max 100 and 400 are not willing to just toss in the towel on this one. As a result, we need to be reminded that Keith Canham is continuing to petition Kodak on our behalf that these films can be aggregated on a regular basis as part of his special order arrangement.

In the short term everyone that is interested in maintaining their access to these films should drop Keith a note letting him know your interests and any other particulars that you feel necessary. How much of what film you would be willing to purchase along with any other specific would be greatly appreciated. I am sure that Keith will be in contact with Kodak shortly so we can turn this breakdown into a breakthrough.

I have to much time and money invested into LF/ULF to take this as a foregone conclusion sitting down. Hopefully, many of you feel the same.

Thanks

[Daniel Stone]

Keith Canham's # is here:

480.250.3990 (from the Canham Cameras webpage)

Michael, I can stretch to say 3-4 boxes, depending on # sheets/box. My current budget doesn't have much "stretchability" right now, but I can work it out. However, if there is enough interest to form a group purchase order for this, count me in !

-Dan

[Sal Santamaura]

...we need to be reminded that Keith Canham is continuing to petition Kodak on our behalf that these films can be aggregated on a regular basis as part of his special order arrangement...

For years I've tried very hard to practice the "if one has nothing nice to say, say nothing" approach regarding Kodak. I even went so far as to promote a whole plate TMY-2 special cutting/finishing through Glazer's, ordering more than I really needed (30 boxes) to make it happen. At this point, I've concluded it's time to face reality and stop holding my tongue.

Here is an excerpt from what I posted in the other thread:

...when we received our special order of whole plate TMY-2 a few years ago, Kodak had put the film in static-charged black plastic bags (that looked like they were closed with a soldering iron) and stuck those bags in unlined, two-part carboard boxes which shed dust all over the bags. It wasn't pretty. I'd advise anyone thinking of placing Kodak special orders to obtain assurance in advance that what they receive will be packaged like Kodak's standard sheet film products or can be returned for a full refund. By the way, you don't need to wait for Canham, just cough up the $15,000 or so to a Kodak dealer and they'll place the order for you. ...The permeable packaging in which our whole plate film was delivered was not, in my opinion, suitable for long-term freezer placement.

I suggest that anyone considering special orders heed this advice.

[Drew Wiley]

Now that I've got plenty of 8X10 TMY and TMX is my freezer, it's a wait and see attitude. The inconvenice of this whole mess will no doubt tempt me to shoot 4x5
when that is a realistic substitute for 8X10. I'm also very familiar with the Ilford options, which aren't really a direct substitute at all, but will work if necessary. Maybe
something else will come along in the meantime, from a completely different source.
There's probably plenty of potential market for a limited number of 8x10 films, and maybe thinning out certain suppliers will be a good thing in this respect, so someone else will have a steady incentive to offer it. But unless something does change, I'll
try to join a group order when my own freezer inventory gets down to about 50%.
I don't feel to penalize Kodak for what they are doing right, which is engineering a
high-quality, fast speed sheet film stock. And I hope there will be enough of us
interested to get this cut into 8x10 on at least a bi-annual basis. Since 8X10 is not
a rare or specialty size at all, maybe a particular vendor would be willing to retain
some boxes in their own inventory to tide us over between cuts.

[mikebarger]

I've seen a lot of posts here and on APUG that 8X10 is not a niche market. I've not seen any posts indicating the amount of 8X10 B&W sold over the last five years or so. Are sales up or down over this period?

My gut tells me even 4X5, which I shoot, has turned into a niche product.

How do you make a guess if 8X10 is a niche product, or not, without some sales data? I know we all want it to be a viable product, but the only real data we have is Kodak removing it's flagship film from the 8X10 market.

[John Bowen]

Michael,

Last week, I made my 1st LF film purchase since 2007. It was a fairly large order. Right now, I likely have a decade's worth of LF film in the freezer. I really don't see myself purchasing any more film than I expose each year. If a group order is put together, for TMY in 5x7 or 8x10 and they need someone to purchase a few boxes to make the order go, I'll help.

[Greg Blank]

Nothing against any seller out there, but it boils down to something most people don't understand, that is the way the sales system in this country generally works. I am going to be somewhat vague to keep myself out of really hot water.

You have manufacturers and distributers, and then resellers. No small reseller can truely compete with the bigger dealers because the biggest dealers purchase the juicest sales items not from a distribution chain but from the manufacturer and take preferred status in order fullfillment simply because they have the resources to constantly order. When people praise the big dealers as to how great a big photo reseller is in terms of price what they do not realize is that they have contributed greatly to the demise of the very product they like to use. Why, because the minute sales dip the reseller does not choose to stock the item because they allocate the sales space to the hot selling item. I think you also give up certain levels of control in not supporting small stores and sellers. This past year I bought a $400 roll of Ilford Mural paper....small potatoes but I bought from my local store, and when I had a minor issue they backed me up and any price lower is too low in terms of giving up that relationship. So I understand making a personal recommendation but there are many smaller qualified resellers- if you are willing to purchase at a slightly higher cost. Hell even I can buy and sell from the distributors, as I have a state resale cert....for me its more of a hassle, because I just want to take pictures

Big resellers possibly purchase at a price that may equal the distributors pricing, and therefore the middleman can not truely compete under these circumstances as well. The distributer then becomes less willing to order and stock an item if it is deemed to be slow moving or not going to produce a steady income stream. It can still be purchased but the lead time is lengthened further, which helps drive small businesses out of business.

In the short term everyone that is interested in maintaining their access to these films should drop Keith a note letting him know your interests and any other particulars that you feel necessary. How much of what film you would be willing to purchase along with any other specific would be greatly appreciated. I am sure that Keith will be in contact with Kodak shortly so we can turn this breakdown into a breakthrough.

I have to much time and money invested into LF/ULF to take this as a foregone conclusion sitting down. Hopefully, many of you feel the same.

Thanks

[Moopheus]

How do you make a guess if 8X10 is a niche product, or not, without some sales data?

Well, look at it this way: If you all get together and order $15,000 worth of film, Kodak will cut it for you.

Kodak's film & Entertainment group has a revenue of over $2 billion. Most of that is movie film, disposable cameras, photofinishing supplies, and that sort of thing. Heck, you're already getting down on the list a ways before you even get to "professional film," let alone large format.

Admittedly, there's no strict definition, but I think it's fair to say that you're not just a niche, you're a niche within a niche within another niche.

[mikebarger]

Fortunately for me, 4x5 is still safe and available...a major niche!

[Jim Shanesy]

Well, look at it this way: If you all get together and order $15,000 worth of film, Kodak will cut it for you.

Rough estimate off the top of my head, extrapolating from current prices: figure ~$200/50 sheet box. 60 boxes or so. That should be a piece o' cake. I'm good for 4 or 5. Aren't there 14 more LF photographers out there like me who use TMY2?