I take an inventory...

[Curt]

Can anyone give some guidelines on how to go about calculating a "lifetime" supply of any product; film, paper, chemicals?

This can be beneficial for those who intend to do it and not in the vain of hoarding but a realistic working strategy. I remember that comment from Fred Picker too, I received all the newsletters and still have them in the binders.

I just had my 59Th birthday and it's been on my mind again lately since the age of "modern" film photography is apparently coming to an end. I would have never guessed that this would happen in my life time but it looks like it's going faster than I thought.

It's the age old question; What's a lifetime supply of anything or what's a lifetime guarantee to someone who is over say 50 or 60? At my age a lifetime supply could be ten year or twenty five years. Realistic it would be based on physical health and lifestyle. How would someone select that magic number?

I find it incredible that I'm sitting here planning the end game of my life. What other factors are in play here, robbery, natural disasters like water and fire, keeping the freezer going to the end, is the inventory insured in any way. What will last in deep storage and what won't. There are a multitude of questions that come up. What if a person changes from silver enlarging to contact printing or from silver to an alternate process. Will the selection of materials dictate the process in the future and constrict the person to a process?

If I were to concentrate on only carbon transfer then I would only need a supply of say X Ray film and Dichromate. Or at the minimum a digital negative from a scan or source and Dichromate. That's fairly minimal but the requirements for carbon are just that, minimal. These are some of the questions I'm asking myself right now.

I appreciate the information from those who have shared their experiences with us. So in a way I'm on the list of those who are taking inventory too.

Curt

[John Bowen]

Curt,

I went about it something like this:

I am 52 and expect to be an active photographer for another 15-25 years. I also expect to expose more film, and spend more time in the darkroom once I become an empty-nester (in the next year or two).

I had 2 pounds of English Amidol on hand and purchased 10 additional pounds. That is enough for nearly 700 liters of Amidol. So, then I purchased enough of the other chemicals to make 700 liters of Amidol. I purchased enough Catechol to make up 40 liters of Pyrocat HD and then purchased the additional chemicals to make up 40 liters. When you shoot ULF sizes, you can go through some chemistry!

Being someone who likes to hedge his bets, I decided I needed a plan B in case some of my paper stash shows signs of fog down the road. I found these threads of help:
http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/4...per-again.html
http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/18844-old-paper.html

After reading these, I purchased chemistry to make 150 liters of Defender D-55.

Confession: My stash contains small lots of Velox, Opal, Convira, Haloid Industro, Portriga-Rapid, the original Brilliant, Medalist, Brovira and a few others. I expect to make good use of the Defender D-55.

KRST - I figured 2 gallons was enough.

I have concerns regarding both the availability of certain chemicals and the ability to have some chemicals shipped in a cost effective manner.

That takes care of the chemicals.

Film...based on "current" consumption I have enough 8x10 film to last 15 years. If consumption picks up as expected, then it may be more like 8-10 year supply. Again, under current consumption, my 7x17 stash will last over 15 years. I expect to be shooting a LOT more 7x17 in the future, so maybe this is less than 10 years. Currently, I shoot very little 5x7, but as I age, I expect to be shooting more 5x7 and 120/220.

One of my favorite subjects is moving water, and for LF, it requires a fast film. My methods include TMY and I would rather have a freezer full then have to go through testing the emulsion of the month. YMMV. My plan is to look for another film once my stock of 8x10 TMY gets down to 500 sheets. I hope, through group purchases, that day will be a long way off.

Azo - over the past 5 years, it has taken me just over a year to go through a 500 sheet box of Canadian Grade 2. I proof all my LF and ULF negatives on 8x10 Canadian Grade 2. I've tuned my negatives to print well on Canadian Grade 2, and I've adjusted my methods so that once I've made the best print possible on Canadian Grade 2, I can transfer that to Rochester Grade 2 or Grade 3 by applying a factor to my exposure times.

I remember being the high bidder on a 500 sheet box of Rochester Grade 2 from a photo store in Chicago. Something like $500 back in 2005. The shipment arrived with a note in the box "if you want any more, call me." I called and picked up two more 500 sheet boxes for "retail" ($325/box). I thought I'd won the lottery! Anywho, for the past 5 years, I've participated in almost every Ebay auction of Azo. I don't always win, but I almost always bid.

Lodima - motivated by fear here. I had lots of 8x10 Azo, but I needed larger paper to print 7x17 negatives. I was fearful, that Lodima might not be made beyond the initial run, so I ordered a bunch of 8x20 Lodima. I can always cut 8x20 down to 8x10 if need be. MAS needed to achieve a critical mass for this paper to be produced. I had the ability to make a significant purchase. It helped me achieve my goals, and it helped MAS achieve his. I have also informed MAS that he should not count on me for any future purchases. That's not to say I'll never buy Lodima again (I love the paper) but I don't see myself making another significant purchase. I think I have enough; time will tell.

Storage - I've split the Azo and Amidol inventories between my home and my office. I store the Azo in big Zip Lock bags. The film is all frozen in two locations. Since we don't have aging info on Lodima, I've decided to freeze that as well.

Robbery? Unless a reader of this forum robs me, I doubt any common criminal would bother with film, photo paper or chemicals. Water? If my primary storage facility floods, you had better have an ark! Fire? A real concern, but what ya gonna do? That's why the stuff that can't be easily replaced is split between 2 locations.

Keep in mind that MAS is shooting film that expired in 1996. Yes, there is elevated fog levels, but Michael shared with me that he felt his recent Chicago negatives were the best negatives he ever made. The elevated FB+F isn't too big of a deal for contact printers.

I had a discussion about "stocking up" with MAS and he shared that his fear was the disappearance of Amidol and KRST. As far as I know, Amidol doesn't have many commercial applications.

I'm not aware of anything I've stocked up on that couldn't be converted back to cash if I decided to switch to an alternate process. Carbon and Platinum interest me, but I don't see myself having the time to coat my own until after I've left the workforce. And the trouble with that is I love what I do for a living.

The reason to stock up on Azo, is it has lasted. I gave a lot of thought as to what would last. The only thing I've stocked up on that I'm not sure about the keeping properties is Cachetol. Sandy King mentioned that it will change color from white to beige as it ages and looses potency. I'll keep an eye on my stash and replace if/when it changes color. I have the Defender 55D chemistry if the papers show fog.

I started this process almost 6 years ago. I believe, with the exception of film, that I'm about done with purchasing photography consumables. Of course, if you know of anyone who has some 20x24 Rochester Grade 2 Azo, have them contact me

Curt, if i haven't answered your questions please feel free to PM me and we can chat.

[Louis Pacilla]

(Curt)
"I just had my 59Th birthday and it's been on my mind again lately since the age of "modern" film photography is apparently coming to an end. I would have never guessed that this would happen in my life time but it looks like it's going faster than I thought."

I don't know if I,m missing something? Did Efke & Ilford make an announcement the same as Kodak?
From where I sit, the only company of the three to show they will throw in the towel soon is Kodak.

[John Bowen]

Louis,

I could be wrong, but it seems a reasonable assumption that if Kodak's film sales are off 20% and costs are up, that Ilford's experience is similar.

And let's face it, Agfa is gone, Kentford is gone, Ilford has already been reorganized once and some of the other players demonstrate less than ideal quality control. Ilford provides outstanding customer service, but they are privately held. They could be 3 minutes from bankrupty for all any of us knows.

Now, let's assume Ilford is still around in 25 years. Given commodity prices, what do you expect to pay for film in 2035? Hell, what do you expect to pay for Ilford film in 2012? I'm pretty sure it will be much more than you'll pay today, much more than inflation alone would indicate.

8x10 TMY is $5.20/sheet today. I'm still shooting stuff I paid $2.99/sheet for in 2007.
Lodima and Gallery are nearly $1.50/sheet today. I'm exposing Azo I paid $0.65/sheet for in 2005.

7x17 TMY hasn't been available since 2006. If/when Kodak makes it again it will cost at least $11/sheet. I'm shooting stuff I paid less than $6/sheet for in 2006.

I know I can sleep at night without worry about the materials I depend on for my hobby/craft. YMMV.

[John Kasaian]

I think a lot depends on your preferences. John Bowen is working within the confines of a specialized discipline requireing specialized materials. I OTOH am easily amused by a variety of materials---ortho, paper negatives, film cut from aerial rolls, perhaps some day I'll even make dry plates---as long as I've got something to load and play with I'll be happy. This allows me to take advantages of sales to build up my inventory(sales which, incidentally have become fewer and far between than in the past) When J and C went out of business and Photo Warehouse stopped cutting end rolls, those were sad days indeed!

[ic-racer]

High speed films don't last long even when frozen eh? Where did you get that information?.

My High speed film

Since this is LF forum I only listed LF film above, but all my 72 exp HP5 frozen since 1984 is pretty bad, not really usable. Base+fog around 0.7. My HP5 super 16 frozen from 2002 is up to 0.16.

I DO have 200ft 35mm microfilm (Copex clone?) with EI around 10-25 that is still pretty clear in the base after 12 years.

[Michael Kadillak]

My High speed film

Since this is LF forum I only listed LF film above, but all my 72 exp HP5 frozen since 1984 is pretty bad, not really usable. Base+fog around 0.7. My HP5 super 16 frozen from 2002 is up to 0.16.

I DO have 200ft 35mm microfilm (Copex clone?) with EI around 10-25 that is still pretty clear in the base after 12 years.

You picked nearly the worst film in HP5 to put in your freezer. Not that it can build FB+F density as a function of time (because to varying degrees they all do), but in the fact that HP5 has limited capabilities to build density at the top end of the film curve. When you only have so much density range to work with in the first place and you are eroding the films capabilities with the additional FB+F you are simply screwed.

Earlier John Bowen spoke of Michael Smiths 1990's vintage Super XX negatives that
printed marvelously. I actually assisted Michael print these negatives in his darkroom last year. One look at them and I commented that these were only good for watching an eclipse or as a welding shield. Yet they printed absolutely beautifully. The reason that this was possible is because Super XX is very unique in its capabilities of building negative density to the moon. Even when you add FB+F to this film as was the case here, the only adverse consequence is long to intensely long printing times.

Bottom line is that you have to use your head when you are considering inventory hedging of photographic film. The first criteria is recognizing that the Achilles Heel of analog photography is film. I have researched coating plates and I would rather NOT go there. Therefore putting quality film into frozen storage is the top priority of a prudent photographer. The next criteria is to make sure that you stock the optimal sheet film that is capable of a high density range necessary to accommodate the additional FB+F that we all know will come as a function of time.

The best films to stock IMHO are T Max 400, T Max 100, Tri X 320 and as a low ASA film, Efke 25. The lower the ASA, the lower the film susceptibility is to naturally occurring gamma radiation. FP4 could be stocked but I would not expect it to last indefinitely. The only condition I would put HP5, PL100 or some of the Arista films into frozen storage is if I could be assured that I would consume this film in less than a year to 18 months.

Cheers!

[Cor]

Efke PL100 goes bad quickly in about a year past its expiration date. Efke 25 can be stored for many many years.

Micheal, interesting comment on EFKE PL100, you mean it went bad even when frozen at -20 degC..

I have unsuccesfully tried to get MACO 100 working(aka EFKE PL100) which was a gift (frooze it right away) , it was close to it's expiry date.

I never could get a decent Dmax, and there is always a high B+F.

Best,

Cor

[Michael Kadillak]

Micheal, interesting comment on EFKE PL100, you mean it went bad even when frozen at -20 degC..

I have unsuccesfully tried to get MACO 100 working(aka EFKE PL100) which was a gift (frooze it right away) , it was close to it's expiry date.

I never could get a decent Dmax, and there is always a high B+F.

Best,

Cor

That is my personal experience with PL100.

I have recently participated in some Efke/Adox special orders involving 8x20 and another that is on its way in 11x14. The first thing I always do when I receive this film is to validate an initial film quality/condition by making a negative or two from the new batch. That way I know if there was any shipping x ray's that may have been induced to the order along the way or if there are any obvious manufacturing defects or issues that are obvious so I can do something about it. I feel it is prudent to assume nothing with shipped film.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Well, I've been lucky I guess in that I never got into the Kodak films. Maybe it was the cost issue from the start, don't know for sure. When I got into seriously building cameras and photographing on a regular basis the kids were in college. I stock piled as much as I could. I've settled on Efke-25 and x-ray film. Now shooting 8x10,11x14, 8x20 and soon 14x17 I need to start stock piling some film. I too have some of the 11x14 Efke coming from a group buy and have done so with the 8x20 ( thanks again for that one , Michael). I have to consider stock piling the Efke 25 in 8x20 as I don't want to try to cut down x-ray film. I did just buy 500 sheets of 14x17 x-ray film for get this with shipping $250.00. So I think that will be enough to last me a while. $.50 a sheet is not bad for 14x17. Going to stock pile the x-ray film and Efke-25 and I'll be good.


jim