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Thread: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film

  1. #81
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    Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film

    Okay, here's what I've learned in this thread.

    1. Those who act the most horrified by being insulted seem to be willing to dish out only slightly more veiled insults themselves with no apparent awareness of having done so. Frankly, that makes me sick. The definition of ad hominem is when the debate changes over from ideas to the people expressing them, and yes I've been occasionally guilty of it myself. It makes me sick when I do it, too. Dressing it up in polite language doesn't change its nature. But I'm a piker compared to some, even as exemplified in this thread. I recommend the following credo: If what we are typing negatively addresses the intelligence, maturity, experience, skill or any other personal aspect of the person with whom we are debating an idea, and not the the idea itself, we should delete it before hitting the send button. The more intelligence, maturity, experience, and skill we have, the quicker we should go for that delete key in our own posts. When I don't hit that delete key as I should, I expect to be called names. When I have been called names, however, it wasn't because of that, it was because someone disagreed with my ideas, and I don't recall their posts being deleted by the moderators, but there it is.

    2. In an elastic market, supply will emerge to satisfy demand, but only that portion of supply that can be produced at a cost low enough for the price that portion of the demand is willing to pay to provide the desired profit. In the short term, the problem is inelasticity. Kodak and other high-production film manufacturers can't cut their production by 80% and still make enough to maintain high-production equipment. Film companies will have to retool for lower production capacities to be profitable at new demand levels. Some have done so. Some are unwilling to. Some haven't done so yet. When there is demand, there will be supply, though the boxes may not be the same color we are used to. The question is: Will the demand remain even if there are temporary interruptions in supply while these inelasticities get sorted out?

    3. I seem to be attracted to niche hobbies. I am renovating a 1973 GMC motorhome. I do amateur radio. I play the tuba. Each of these provides an example of a declining market. In each case, the prices of equipping the hobbies at the same quality level have increased as the demand has declined. In each case, low-cost and therefore low-price manufacturers have entered the market to provide supply at lower price points, even if that has meant a decline in quality that must be tolerated by buyers at those price points. With view cameras, this process has been underway for decades, and was going full steam long before digital started competing with film. At least since the 70's, large-format manufacturers have been trying new ways to capture market at low price points. Low-end amateur use of large-format has steadily declined at least since the SLR boom of the 70's, and little that view-camera manufacturers have done has been able to recapture that market. The reason is that for those users, the SLR was a more appropriate fulfillment of their requirements.

    4. Professionals have different requirements than amateurs, and commercial photographers have different requirements than art photographers. Each will make choices based on fulfilling their requirements, and those requirements will be based on what they need to do to satisfy their customers. Amateurs are just the same, except that they are their own customers. The film medium still uniquely fulfills requirements of a determined few art photographers and amateurs, but not most commercial photographers. This is a statement on how good digital tools have become, and on how poorly film fulfilled the requirements of many users. It is also a statement on changing desires and standards of photography customers. Wedding customers, to cite one example, seem to prefer choosing from 1000 images, many of which look like plain snapshots, on some vast web page. Those of us who used to show up at a wedding with two pro-packs of Vericolor and a Mamiya C-330 may kick the dirt about it, but that is where the customers are these days. The digital photographer can have those thousand images online in a day, and let the customer do their editing for them. No more spending hours sending the film out to a pro lab, numbering and sleeving the negatives, providing printed order forms, and only making money on the enlargements because of the time required just to produce a proof-book. No more long-term storage of negatives. No more inventory of proof-books, negative sleeves and enlargement folders, and on and on. Much of what is happening in the market is easier to explain if we go back and look at requirements as driven by what customers want and photographers need.

    5. The requirements that are best fulfilled by film are still with us, and likely will be, at a reduced demand, for some time to come. The high-production film manufacturers might not be able to follow that demand, but someone will, if film users are willing to survive occasional lapses and changes in the available products.

    6. Branch electrical circuits are protected based on the current-carrying capacity of the wire used in the branch circuit. In the U.S., most branch lighting circuits use 14-gauge copper wire which is sized for 15 amps maximum current, according to the National Electrical Code. Standing equipment that requires more current to run reliably should be provided a special circuit. It is quite common for an appliance circuit to be wired with 12-gauge copper wire and protected with a 20-amp breaker. It uses a (single) receptacle that properly provides for one horizontal spade on the appliance plug, but that will also accept normal 15-amp plugs with two vertical spades. Freezer equipment that requires more will run on 240 VAC and will use special circuits, receptacles, and plugs. But circuit breakers do wear out, and sometimes a flaky breaker can be replaced by a new one of the same rating and solve a problem of frequent tripping.

    Rick "whose current requirements are only fulfilled using large format" Denney

  2. #82

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    Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film

    Rick,

    I don't know about #6, but the rest was well said!
    Jim Cole
    Flagstaff, AZ

  3. #83

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    Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film

    I bought a chest freezer off Craigslist for $40 and my paper and film go in there, in plastic bags, kept slightly off the floor of the freezer. Despite its age I measured its power consumption and it is quite frugal. It is in an unheated garage which also keeps power use down.

    I keep it well defrosted (once a year, and there is barely anything to melt out since I so rarely open it) and if the power goes out there isn't a great deal of water sitting in the bottom. And besides, the photographic materials aren't touching the bottom where they could get wet. The power goes out often in our local mountains, but a chest-style freezer will keep cold for a long time. I have never had our occasional lightning trip a breaker.

    When the power comes back on, everything is fine. This doesn't seem like a really difficult problem to solve.

  4. #84

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    Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Camper View Post
    The world is also a big place, and I think one thing that stands out is that we keep forgetting about China. Chamonix, Fotoman and other brands are all made there, for that market. I wrote Fotoman (about the confusion between Fotoman Camera and Fotoman China .....and the announcement about Fotoman Camera ceasing production causing confusion).......... and the reply was that they were not too worried about sales over here or elsewhere (it is just extra profit, but if you want one, they are NOW able to ship).
    Van,

    China could certainly supply the market for film in the US, if there is a market and the quality control was up to par. However, I should mention that in spite of the fact that many LF film cameras are made in China the Chinese market for film is almost non-existent as Chinese photographers went almost 100% digital long before photographers in the US. In three trips to China since 2007 in which I traveled extensively around the country I can remember seeing only one other person with a film camera.

    On the other hand, I agree that if LF photographers are going to have a source of film in the future it will most likely come from China.

    Sandy
    For discussion and information about carbon transfer please visit the carbon group at groups.io
    [url]https://groups.io/g/carbon

  5. #85

    Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film

    Clearly irrespective of a minority of adverse opinions I see absolutely no reason why sheet film cannot continue to exist in harmony with digital technologies. Which films rise to the status of remaining sufficiently popular to stay the course is in our hands. Don't get discouraged as there is no reason to do so. All we need to do is continue to support your favorite film to the degree possible and encourage others to do so. I also advise that maintaining an inventory of photographic film and paper is just good common sense. You make the call as to what works for you.

  6. #86

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    Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film

    I agree 100%. This thread and all the others that have sprung from the TMY announcement annoy me.

    Film will be a profitable niche market for a long time to come. The Autotype company making tissue for carbon and gravure lasted a long time, the experts may differ but I guess that their equipment was ancient and they could not justify big investment in new technology. That is a tiny market, now B&S are making gravure tissue in addition to carbon tissue and are aparrently flat out. Film is bigger than that

    Being number one in a small, stable and inelastic market is potentially very profitable.

  7. #87

    Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay DeFehr View Post
    By selling off my 8x10 gear now, while film is still available for it, I stand to get a much better price for it than I could get later, when film is harder to find, and more expensive. If I want to buy back in to 8x10 at some future date, I'll pay much less to replace the gear I sell now.
    Boy thats the same EXACT reasoning I had for selling off my old Analog synthesizers back in 1988.Digital synthesizers were finally maturing and coming down in price, and boy that sound!Every pop record had DX7's, Synclaviers, Fairlights, etc.Analog was dead.Why hold onto my old Mini Moogs, Rolands, Oberheims, when I could just sample em all and be done with those twitchy oscillators.

    So into the recycler newspaper classifieds they all went, 2 Minimoog D's sold $150.00 each, 2 Roland Jupiter 8's $450.00 each, Oberheim OBXa $400.00, and a few others.Took a few weeks but they all sold.Finally I was freed of this rapidly obsolescing gear and felt fortunate to get what I did for all of it.Hell if I ever needed another Mini Moog in the future people would practically be giving em away right.

    Fast forward, Jan 2011, Mini Moogs used on ebay $3500.00 - 6000.00 depending on condition, Jupiter 8's two right now at $9000.00, Oberheim OBXa $2000.00 - 4000.00.Studios that have them in their keyboard rooms are in high demand, and kids half my age lust after them even though high quality digital samples of em all abound.Though I have a high end studio utilizing all digital synthesizers these days that get the bills paid, I truly miss the old boys and their unique personalities.

    I've been seriously wrestling selling off all my 4x5 and 8x10 gear since getting my 5DII and getting better with stitching, but the whole analog to digital experience I had in the synth world has me spooked.We never dreamed in 88 analog would be so popular 23 years latter.I'm not sure I want to repeat history with my photography.Who knows, hell none of us are guaranteed another 5 min. of life let alone another 20 years, so its a hard dilemma

  8. #88
    Format Omnivore Brian C. Miller's Avatar
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    Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film

    I really don't think that China will supply LF film. To my knowledge, they aren't doing it now, so I don't see a reasonable probability that they will do so in the future. The Chinese products may not be suitable for US markets (Jury Slams China Lucky Film with $3 Million Verdict, paper chemistry requires amonia).

    In case of a market collapse where Fuji, Kodak, and Ilford cease production, the suppliers will be in eastern Europe. Will the quality be top notch? No. I have tried Efke, and sure enough, it does have the occasional defect, with one of them being about 1/2inch long, and I mean no emulsion. But I think that they will truly be the last to fall. Once it's all down, then it's back to coating glass plates.

  9. #89
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    Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film

    Chris:

    Well this story may not be unique to the digital music equipment or even now what's occurring with MF/LF photography equipment.

    I sold my mint-condition 1969 Z28 Camaro in 1974 for a whopping $1800.

    I can only guess what it would be worth today but my guess is $75k.

    Who knew? But then again, who in 1974 could afford to garage and maintain a car for 36-years? The cost of storage and maintenance would likely have exceeded the $73.2k difference.

    Bob G
    All natural images are analog. But the retina converts them to digital on their way to the brain.

  10. #90

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    Re: The Film Apocalypse and Proper Freezing and Storage of Film

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian C. Miller View Post
    I really don't think that China will supply LF film. To my knowledge, they aren't doing it now, so I don't see a reasonable probability that they will do so in the future. The Chinese products may not be suitable for US markets (Jury Slams China Lucky Film with $3 Million Verdict, paper chemistry requires amonia).

    In case of a market collapse where Fuji, Kodak, and Ilford cease production, the suppliers will be in eastern Europe. Will the quality be top notch? No. I have tried Efke, and sure enough, it does have the occasional defect, with one of them being about 1/2inch long, and I mean no emulsion. But I think that they will truly be the last to fall. Once it's all down, then it's back to coating glass plates.
    Brian,

    While there may have been some quality control issues with Chinese film in the paste I am absolutely certain that a much better infrastructure exists in China for improving quality control if the Chinese film makers want to do so. Let's not forget that many of our top tech products (iPods, iPhones, etc) are made in China at this time. And they sure have made some fine cameras in Shen-Hao and Chamonix. If I had to bet I would definitely put my money on the Chinese rather than East Europeans.

    And BTW, I am still a major film user, though I have shifted my buying primarily to Fuji Acros which I prefer to any other film, Kodak or otherwise. My basic philosophy is that I am going to use what is available now, and not worry about the future. When I can not buy Acros I will shift to Plan B.

    Sandy
    For discussion and information about carbon transfer please visit the carbon group at groups.io
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