Roll Film with a LF camera (4x5? 2x3?)

[Oren Grad]

Not that I would like to be authoritative on this point but a quick search (Badger, LF Boutique) shows 2.4 kg for the AS 6x9 camera. I confess being too lazy to go and put my AS on the scale now- only because I would need to change to the conventional bellows on it...

2.4 for the fixed-rail version...

https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/..._detail&p=1381

...2.2 for the collapsing-rail "compact" version ("6x9FC") that the OP was asking about:

https://www.badgergraphic.com/store/...uct_detail&p=7

...camera-trivia-R-us

[GPS]

Thanks for the nuance...;-)

[tendim]

Hello again everyone.

As before, thanks for all of the very useful comments so far. I believe GPS hit it on the head:

The main OP's problem is the price limitation he puts on himself. Any view camera able to handle the short focal length lenses he wishes to use must be of a decent mechanical construction due to the precision movements requirements. A simple wooden spooky will not do.

Given what I wanted to accomplish, with what little funds I have, well, let's just say that I'll wake up from that pipe dream for now. In the meantime, I've pulled an old Toyo 45M out of its case that has been hiding away in a corner for the past 10 years. Unfortunately I don't have a lens for it anymore, but that's a moot point as I don't plan on using it for studio work this time around.

The camera is still pretty solid with a light-leak-proof bellows, but for what I plan on doing, I don't think the current bellows will work for me. I've done some poking around and found a thread from this forum from 2008 (here), but nothing since then. So, I've got some questions, again.

• Bag bellows! If I want to go wide on a 6x7 or 6x9 I'm assuming this is what I'll need. My current accordion bellows looks like it will kill me if I try to do any movements at minimum extension. Any suggestions on where to get one? What about modern Toyo bellows? The thread I referenced above speaks of modern ones on a 45M, but has anything changed?
• I am at a complete and utter loss with regards to LF lenses. To recap: I'm interested in shooting 6x7 (possibly 6x9), so I'm looking for a lens in the 65mm range. But, what am I looking for? Is there an FAQ that outlines the different lens types? I see names like "Symmar," "Sironar" and the like. Even on KEH there is a wide selection of "Sironar", "Nikkor", "Caltar" and "Grandagon". The Nikkor is pretty self explanatory, but what about the rest? Are these manufacturers or designs? Is there any design or manufacturer I should stay away from?
• Lens mounts.. From memory most shutters are a "Copal" with a different number, representing the opening required in the lensboard, no? My lensboard has an approximately 40mm opening which is a Copal-1; any ideas if this will be a problem? Or is it "luck of the draw" if I find the lens I want, with a Copal-1 shutter?
• Back to the roll-film question. What is a good way to use roll-film on this camera? It has one of the spring loaded backs currently where I would slide my 4x5 film holder in front of the ground glass currently.

Once again, thanks for all of the help so far!

Cheers.

[Jack Dahlgren]

Hello again everyone.

As before, thanks for all of the very useful comments so far. I believe GPS hit it on the head:



Given what I wanted to accomplish, with what little funds I have, well, let's just say that I'll wake up from that pipe dream for now. In the meantime, I've pulled an old Toyo 45M out of its case that has been hiding away in a corner for the past 10 years. Unfortunately I don't have a lens for it anymore, but that's a moot point as I don't plan on using it for studio work this time around.

The camera is still pretty solid with a light-leak-proof bellows, but for what I plan on doing, I don't think the current bellows will work for me. I've done some poking around and found a thread from this forum from 2008 (here), but nothing since then. So, I've got some questions, again.

• Bag bellows! If I want to go wide on a 6x7 or 6x9 I'm assuming this is what I'll need. My current accordion bellows looks like it will kill me if I try to do any movements at minimum extension. Any suggestions on where to get one? What about modern Toyo bellows? The thread I referenced above speaks of modern ones on a 45M, but has anything changed?
• I am at a complete and utter loss with regards to LF lenses. To recap: I'm interested in shooting 6x7 (possibly 6x9), so I'm looking for a lens in the 65mm range. But, what am I looking for? Is there an FAQ that outlines the different lens types? I see names like "Symmar," "Sironar" and the like. Even on KEH there is a wide selection of "Sironar", "Nikkor", "Caltar" and "Grandagon". The Nikkor is pretty self explanatory, but what about the rest? Are these manufacturers or designs? Is there any design or manufacturer I should stay away from?
• Lens mounts.. From memory most shutters are a "Copal" with a different number, representing the opening required in the lensboard, no? My lensboard has an approximately 40mm opening which is a Copal-1; any ideas if this will be a problem? Or is it "luck of the draw" if I find the lens I want, with a Copal-1 shutter?
• Back to the roll-film question. What is a good way to use roll-film on this camera? It has one of the spring loaded backs currently where I would slide my 4x5 film holder in front of the ground glass currently.

Once again, thanks for all of the help so far!

Cheers.

The big 4 lens manufacturers (modern) are Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikon and Fuji. The first two of those label their different lens designs with names (symmar, angulon, grandagon, sironar ...) Sometimes the design changes but the name stays the same. They also produce lenses for third parties like Linhof and Calumet. If the lens is for calumet, then they are usually cheaper than the brand names.

There is too much to explain about which lens is good and bad, but search the forum for the focal lengths you want and you will find many opinions.

Lenses mostly come already fitted with a shutter and you should probably only consider those that do at least until you have more experience. The lens design and focal length will determine what shutter it is in. Then you just need to find a lens board that is pre-drilled to that size, or that can be drilled to that size. It is not difficult.

There are a few threads active right now on roll-film holders. I suggest you read them.

[Policar]

If this goes wide enough bellows-wise and doesn't increase too high in price it looks awesome. Not sure about lensboard availability, though:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Horseman-VH-R-ra...#ht_1293wt_702

I think certain versions of the Fuji 680 have tilt/shift, too. Sometimes I wish I could ditch my 6x7 and 4x5 and just get that Fuji. Looks so cool. But sometimes I want a Canon 5DII, also.

I'm relatively new to 4x5, but from what I can tell the "on" suffix generally correlates with wide lenses (biogon, angulon, distagon, grandagon) with large amounts of coverage. I believe the super angulon and grandagon are modified biogon designs? Not sure. The symmar and sironar are plasmats with less coverage and longer focal lengths. The additional letters and stuff correlate with how old the lens design is, although I don't think these designs have changed much in recent years. Apparently, any modern lens from Nikon, Fuji, Schneider, or Rodenstock is about equally as good with coverage and speed being the real differentiators. But I have no idea, as I haven't compared directly. There are lots of rebranded lenses, too, and then some other manufacturers I'm not very familiar with. Other lenses are process lenses mounted in shutters (ronar, claron, etc.). I only have Rodenstock lenses with colored rings around them since I am a sucker for marketing tactics. The 65mm grandagon looks nice to me because it's fast (f4.5) but probably also expensive. I have a 90mm f6.8 grandagon and it is so dark in the ground glass I kind of dislike using it.

[al olson]

. . .
[*]Poking around, I've found a "LINHOF BABY Technika 6x9" camera which is definitely in my price range.. I'm a little confused on the Linhof cameras. Are these all folders/range finders? And I've seen various references to different generations (I, II, III) and lines "Technika" among others). What should I be looking for at these? Can a Linhof perform the shifts and swings I would require? What about wide lenses?
. . .

The baby Technikas aka as Super Technikas come in several versions. The IIIs (pre 1956) and IVs (produced from 1956 to 1964) have integrated viewfinders/rangefinders. The Vs have an integrated rangefinder and detachable viewfinder. Unlike the 4x5 cameras, I do not believe that this camera has ever been produced in a I or II version.

These cameras are folders, like the baby Speeds, and were designed to be used as press cameras and other uses by architects, doctors, and engineers. These cameras were frequently sold with three lens kits and a rangefinder cam that has been machined to the focus characteristics of the lens fitted to the camera (the cam has three cammed prongs with the serial number of the lens on each prong and the serial number of the body on the opposite).

I have a Super Technika III with 65mm, 105mm, and 180mm lenses. I also have a Linhof Rollex roll film holder that can be placed on the back. [Not for sale] The book, The Linhof Camera Story, states that lenses from 47mm to 360mm are available for these cameras. It further states for the IV that the bed drops 15 degrees, the lens board tilts 15 degrees, and it has 50mm front rise. Missing are swing and shift (although swing can be accomplished by rotating the camera and using tilt and likewise rise would be used to accomplish shift). The rear standard rotates and is adjustable similarly to the 4x5 Technikas for minor tilt and swing.

Good luck on your search.

[GPS]

Hello again everyone.

...

• Bag bellows! If I want to go wide on a 6x7 or 6x9 I'm assuming this is what I'll need. My current accordion bellows looks like it will kill me if I try to do any movements at minimum extension. Any suggestions on where to get one? What about modern Toyo bellows? The thread I referenced above speaks of modern ones on a 45M, but has anything changed?
  
  ...
• Back to the roll-film question. What is a good way to use roll-film on this camera? It has one of the spring loaded backs currently where I would slide my 4x5 film holder in front of the ground glass currently.

Once again, thanks for all of the help so far!

Cheers.

Depending on your manual appetite - bag bellows is the easiest to make by yourself. Fine leather sold to make clothes from is a wonderful material for it. You can make bag bellows better than the original ones just for you special needs. If you cannot find spare frames for the bellows, in the worst case you cut the bellows you have...

Roll-film holder you could use is a Calumet 6x7 slide in type.
You see - you already have your camera, the dream is still alive...

[rdenney]

[*]I am at a complete and utter loss with regards to LF lenses. To recap: I'm interested in shooting 6x7 (possibly 6x9), so I'm looking for a lens in the 65mm range. But, what am I looking for? Is there an FAQ that outlines the different lens types? I see names like "Symmar," "Sironar" and the like. Even on KEH there is a wide selection of "Sironar", "Nikkor", "Caltar" and "Grandagon". The Nikkor is pretty self explanatory, but what about the rest? Are these manufacturers or designs? Is there any design or manufacturer I should stay away from?

Here's a quick summary of lenses new enough to be currently useful but old enough to be affordable. I've included the model names and their design heritage.

Manufacturer: Schneider Kreuznach
Models: Super Angulon (wide coverage double-biogon design), Symmar (plasmat).
Vintage models: Angulon (dagor design--not as wide or sharp as SA), Xenar (tessar).

Manufacturer: Rodenstock
Models: Grandagon (wide coverage double-biogon design), Sironar (plasmat)
Vintage model: Ysar, Ysarex (tessar)

Manufacturer: Nikon
Models: Nikkor-SW (wide coverage double-biogon design), Nikkor-W (plasmat)

I'm unfamiliar with the Fuji models but they fit in the same categories and are just as good as the above.

There are some additional models that still float around, including a Rodenstock triplet (the budget-minded by excellent Geronar--excellent when stopped down, that is), and several models that are process-lens designs that work for regular photography when stopped down. There are also some telephoto designs that have much less coverage but that require less bellows draw--these are not really important when considering smaller formats than 4x5, and they start at 270mm and go up from there.

The Zeiss Biogon was a revolutionary wide-coverage design. Schneider took the design of half a biogon, and doubled it, with the second grouping opposing the first. This corrected for geometric distortion easily which is important for a wide-angle lens. And the Super Angulon design also projects a very round aperture to the edges of the frame, minimizing the darkening of the corners that occurred with the previous dagor designs.

Both Schneider and Rodenstock (at least) have two versions of their wide-coverage designs. The older, slower design has a bit less coverage than the newer, faster design, but other than coverage they perform similarly stopped down. The coverage is important for lenses of roll-film focal lengths if you end up using them for 4x5 or larger. A 65mm f/8 Super Angulon will just barely cover 4x5, but a newer 65/5.6 Super Angulon will provide room for movements.

Plasmats are normal lenses with moderate coverage, a largish maximum aperture and excellent performance. They are the general replacement for middle and longer focal lengths for the previous tessar designs. Tessars can be excellent, but with narrower coverage. That's no fault for longer lenses, of course. The tessars are all based on the original Zeiss Tessar.

In large format, lenses are all about coverage, which is how big an image they can make when focused at infinity. A 65mm lens for 4x5 will require a wide-coverage design, while a 65mm plasmat will only work with 6x9 or smaller formats, and a 65mm tessar won't even do that.

The XL series of Schneider lenses, the S series of Rodenstock Sironars, and the lenses intended for digital backs are newer and much more expensive. The Super Angulon XL and Symmar XL lenses, and the Sironar S, use low-dispersion glass to allow greater coverage without a performance compromise. The digital lenses are designed with some retrofocus qualities so that the lens doesn't have to be as close to the sensor as a conventional large-format lens, and so that the lens projects onto the sensor in rays close to a right-angle to the sensor surface.

The 47mm/5.6 Super Angulon is the shortest of the older, cheaper, more conventional lenses that will cover 6x9. If you want to go shorter than that, you'll need an XL design or one of the newer lenses designed for digital backs.

Rick "providing only the outline" Denney