Roll Film with a LF camera (4x5? 2x3?)

[tendim]

Good day to you all!

Some kind folks at photo.net pointed me in the direction of this forum, which I didn't know existed! It's nice to see so many people still interested in traditional sheet film shooting.

That said, I'm a little embarrassed at my request.. I've been a shooter of pretty much every format, but settled on medium format a long time ago. I love the 6x6 and 6x7 formats, and prefer to shoot them for personal work (of course, pulling out my 35mm's when required as well, depending on the task at hand!). I've recently started shooting landscapes (leaning towards the industrial side) and have realized the limits to my medium format gear (either a Bronica SQ for 6x6 or a Mamiya RB for 6x7): that being that, without movements, I will always be a victim to "toppling buildings". Thus, my current quest.

I've been considering a field camera for doing industrial landscapes, but limiting myself to roll film so that I can continue to use my beloved 6x7 formats. Switching to full 4x5 really isn't practical for me:

• I've tried sheet film before, and personally don't like it.
• My darkroom is setup for 6x7; moving to 4x5 just isn't possible given the size of the enlargers, etc.
• My film to digital workflow is currently optimized for 6x6 and 6x7, so I'd rather stick with "what I know"

That said, after doing some research, the Toyo Field 45AX seems to fit within my budget. But I'm not sure if it can do what I require. Ideally, I'd like:

• To be able to use my Mamiya RB backs to shoot 6x7; I believe the 45AX can be adapted to use Graflok backs, which should allow me to leverage my RB backs.
• To use a lens equivalent to 24mm or 28mm in 35mm format, so a 50mm or 60mm lens on the Toyo
• Retain full movements (since I am considering this camera for movements, there isn't much point if I can't use them due to the lens!!)

Is this at all practical with a 45AX? What about the other Toyo View field cameras? What if I branched out of the Toyo line to something else? Ideally I'd like to keep costs (including a "nice" wide angle lens, and whatever adapters needed for my roll film backs, to sub $1,500 CAD) within budget. What about non-field cameras? Looking at the KEH catalogue there is a Cambo 2x3 camera. I've stayed away from monorails because I would like to take this out in the field -- but given the size of a 2x3 maybe I don't have to limit myself?

Thanks for any comments you all can provide! I'm kind of at a loss as to where to find some concrete information as using roll film on a LF camera is definitely "do-able" but there aren't many reports as to what functionality is lost!

Cheers!

[Jack Dahlgren]

Good day to you all!

Some kind folks at photo.net pointed me in the direction of this forum, which I didn't know existed! It's nice to see so many people still interested in traditional sheet film shooting.

That said, I'm a little embarrassed at my request.. I've been a shooter of pretty much every format, but settled on medium format a long time ago. I love the 6x6 and 6x7 formats, and prefer to shoot them for personal work (of course, pulling out my 35mm's when required as well, depending on the task at hand!). I've recently started shooting landscapes (leaning towards the industrial side) and have realized the limits to my medium format gear (either a Bronica SQ for 6x6 or a Mamiya RB for 6x7): that being that, without movements, I will always be a victim to "toppling buildings". Thus, my current quest.

I've been considering a field camera for doing industrial landscapes, but limiting myself to roll film so that I can continue to use my beloved 6x7 formats. Switching to full 4x5 really isn't practical for me:

• I've tried sheet film before, and personally don't like it.
• My darkroom is setup for 6x7; moving to 4x5 just isn't possible given the size of the enlargers, etc.
• My film to digital workflow is currently optimized for 6x6 and 6x7, so I'd rather stick with "what I know"

That said, after doing some research, the Toyo Field 45AX seems to fit within my budget. But I'm not sure if it can do what I require. Ideally, I'd like:

• To be able to use my Mamiya RB backs to shoot 6x7; I believe the 45AX can be adapted to use Graflok backs, which should allow me to leverage my RB backs.
• To use a lens equivalent to 24mm or 28mm in 35mm format, so a 50mm or 60mm lens on the Toyo
• Retain full movements (since I am considering this camera for movements, there isn't much point if I can't use them due to the lens!!)

Is this at all practical with a 45AX? What about the other Toyo View field cameras? What if I branched out of the Toyo line to something else? Ideally I'd like to keep costs (including a "nice" wide angle lens, and whatever adapters needed for my roll film backs, to sub $1,500 CAD) within budget. What about non-field cameras? Looking at the KEH catalogue there is a Cambo 2x3 camera. I've stayed away from monorails because I would like to take this out in the field -- but given the size of a 2x3 maybe I don't have to limit myself?

Thanks for any comments you all can provide! I'm kind of at a loss as to where to find some concrete information as using roll film on a LF camera is definitely "do-able" but there aren't many reports as to what functionality is lost!

Cheers!

Roll-film on a sheet film camera is not a problem, except that you are carrying a big box instead of a smaller one. If you are just interested in a few simple movements, there are some tilt-shift lenses out there that you might try instead.

You can get a roll-flim back for a 4x5 for about 100 which is probably cheaper than finding a way to adapt your existing backs to the camera.

Probably the best way if you are going to stick with 120 film is to look at the baby linhofs and the like. They are 120 size so you don't have such a heavy box and tripod and have smaller bellows which means they can use the shorter lenses that are typical for medium format.

I have a baby speed graphic with a 6x9 rollfilm back that works pretty well. If you are using roll film it is good to have a camera with a range finder and viewfinder so that you don't have to use the ground glass all the time. Taking the rollfilm holder off, looking at the gg, then putting it back on then taking the shot is a pain.

These smaller cameras can probably handle short lenses better, except that the lensboard size might limit what lenses are possible. In large format, wide lenses often have big rear elements. My 90mm lens is easily 3 times the size of my 300mm lens.

Not only that, but it is probably not going to be easy to use a 50 or 65mm lens on one of those press cameras with a focal plane shutter.

[Oren Grad]

Welcome!

IMO a Toyo 45AX is not going to be ideal for 6x7. The camera is designed for convenient use with focal lengths that are moderately wide to moderately long on 4x5. With focal lengths short of normal (~90mm) for 6x7, on the 45AX you'll likely run into restricted movements, the hassles of a recessed lensboard, or both. Also, the 45AX back is designed to directly accept rollholders with a 4x5 Graflok plate, not "baby" Graflok rollholders such as those for the RB67. Adapters do exist, though.

There are some 4x5 cameras optimized for wide-angle use (for example, compact monorails with bag bellows, some Ebony SW models) which can serve well for 6x7, but you should also look at 2x3 monorails, field and technical cameras - there are plenty of different models to choose from. Another option is architectural cameras like the Cambo Wide, Silvestri and Corfield, though those require lenses in helicoid mount and are often quite pricey.

If you can tell us what focal length(s) you'd like to use, it will help narrow the field and better focus discussions of the pros and cons of different models.

[Frank Bunnik]

Ffordes (www.ffordes.co.uk) is a reliable company that has an Ebony SW23 for sale used. It is not cheap though. They also have a used Toyo 23G. A lot cheaper but not a field camera so maybe a bit more cumbersome in the field and providing much more movement than you probably need.

Personally I find the 6x9 ground glass of these kind of cameras to small to see the effects of shifts as good as on a 4x5 ground glass.

Good luck with your decision, Frank

[gary mulder]

For about 5 - 6 years I used a technikakardan 23. It is a nice camera which can handle lenses from 38mm to ± 240mm. A bitt above your budget If you do not have luck. You can even buy a adapter for your Mamiya backs. Although I think it is more cost effective to buy a second hand linhof roll film back.
But eventually I began to hate the small ground glass. Even when you fit same kind off "super" screen like a maxwell ore bosscreen which I did. So for about 3 years I use a 4x5.

[Sascha Welter]

Hey, there are some 6x9cm large format cameras. There is an article on the largeformatphotography.info static page: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/roundup2x3.html

Myself I'm using an Arca-Swiss 6x9. Works fine for me and being able to use 120 film makes life a lot easier.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Hello from France and welcome to the 2x3" - 6x9 cm sub-group of this forum.

I've stayed away from monorails because I would like to take this out in the field -- but given the size of a 2x3 maybe I don't have to limit myself?

I have followed this route to a medium format view camera with all movements, 10 years ago, and I do not regret it even if I occasionnaly shoot some 4x5" cut film (and 9x12 cm as well) and also 6x12cm panoramic shots on 120 rolls, with the 4x5" accessory bellows & back on the same camera.

I have an Arca Swiss 6x9 monorail camera and I use it only in the field
The only strong limitation is that you HAVE to use a tripod.

The lenses & focal lengths your are mentioning ....
To use a lens equivalent to 24mm or 28mm in 35mm format, so a 50mm or 60mm lens on ... .. any camera fitted with a 6x7, 6x8 or 6x9 rollfim back.
Those lenses exist for the 6x9 format from various manufacturers, and deliver outstanding image quality. I have the 45 & 55 Rodenstock apo grandagon lenses plus the Grandagon-N 65mm and 75mm. Competing products exist from Schnedier and in 75mm and above, the Gang of Four : Fuji, Nikon, Schneider and Rodenstock, plus some outsiders, will supply many lenses designed for the 4x5" format (100-105mm view camera lenses are usually designed for the 6X9 format, though).
The 75 in 6x7-6x9 is the equivalent of the 35 mm in "small format photography" except that with a view camera lens you have a huge margin for titlting and shifting as you like it.
The amount of tilt required for a classical lanscape image with the forreground perfectly sharp is only a few degrees of angle. So do not forget that in order to get a really sharp image using a Scheimpflug tilt in the 6x7 format, with focal lengths shorter than 90mm, you need very smooth and very precise tilt controls.

Even if you do not use tilts, the use of shifts is extremely simple and allows you to get perfect images that correspond to the old standards of perspective projection for architecure shots, as obeyed by all painters since the Renaissance times
If, agreed, the use of tilts and Scheimpflug settings is a bit difficult to check on a small ground glass, shifts on the contrary are not at all difficult to apply; even more: it so easy to properly frame with shifts, that you'll soon ask yourself how you could live for so long without access to shifts in your medium format photography !!
Of course you can ignore those old rules and let tour verticals converge, it is up to you (this is another story)

Well, not kidding, I'll be happy to share my experience as an amateur with a 120-size rollfilm camera featuring all tilts & shifts !

Additional remark : the Arca Swiss 6x9 camera as well as many other view cameras take the 3x4" Polaroid-compatible film 10-packs, to date sold only by Fuji since Polaroid discontinued them. So if you want to take some instant shots, with the polaroid back you can actually use the full sensitive area, not like in the 6x6 or 6x7 camera where a lot of precious 3x4" instant film surface is lost.

[ki6mf]

Welcome. The issue I had when getting a roll film adapter, mine is 6X9 i just like bigger negatives, was the adapter for my cameras. My Cambo needs an adapter and my Shen Hao allows for the ground glass to be removed and the adapter inserted. I assume you have checked out if you can couple the roll film holder to the camera. A good site to check for roll film cameras is www.keh.com I believe they recently had a Cambo 23 for US $450 recently.

[Dan Fromm]

tendim, I went to 2x3 (US-speak for 6x9) from 35 mm, started with a 2x3 Speed Graphic, later added a Century Graphic (plastic-bodied 2x3 Crown Graphic) to be able to use lenses shorter than would focus to infinity on the 2x3 Speed. Minimum flange-to-film distances for the two are 61.9 mm (2x3 Pacemaker Speed Graphic) and 34.9 mm (Century/2x3 Crown).

Last year I was given a 2x3 Cambo SC, find that I use the Graphics much more. Smaller, lighter, easier to transport and the SC is hostile to lenses shorter than 90 mm.

The shortest lens that will cover 2x3 is the 35/4.5 Apo Grandagon. I have one, use it on my Century. Completely impossible on the 2x3 Cambo.

I appreciate that you want to use y'r RB backs. They'll work on 2x3 Graphics that have Graflok backs, possibly with interlock problems. Not, as you've already been told, on a 4x5 camera without an adapter.

The unmentioned problem with 2x3 view cameras is cost. The only relatively inexpensive one is the 2x3 Galvin. Without really good luck searching, you'll pay more for a decent used 2x3 than for a decent 4x5.

Look here http://www.largeformatphotography.info/roundup2x3.html for a list of 2x3 view cameras.

Emmanuel is right, if you want movements there's no substitute for a proper view camera. Graphics offer a little front rise, no front fall.

[darr]

tendim,

Welcome to the forum!
I have shot a lot of 120 film via Arca Swiss 6x9 cameras. I currently have an older Arca 6x9 Field Compact that I do not use since I made the switch to the M line 2 and also have a newer Arca 4x5" in my equipment closet. The Arca Swiss 6x9 FC will take your RB67 film backs via the adapter plate I have. If you are interested in this type of camera, PM me for photos and price.

Good luck!
Darr