Are "cherry-picked" Linhof lenses a myth?

[IanG]

It's highly unlikely Schneider would have told a competitor to Linhof how Linhof, Sinar, Durst etc tested & selected their lenses.

As Vaughn says it's six of one half a dozen of the other. So the half truth told to Lynn is not wrong it just omits the fact that lenses were checked & tested and some returned.

Ian

[Brian Ellis]

Yes guys, it is a myth. I was in a discussion with the "export manager" of Schneider some years ago when the subject came up (we were the largest buyer of LF Schneider lenses in the world at the time). With regard to pre-selected lenses, he said, "Sure, when customer "L or S " orders 25 lenses to be pre-selected, we "pre-select" the first 25 off the line and ship them". After a good laugh, his view was that we make every effort to produce fine quality optics, if we knew that some were not very good, they wouldn't be offered for sale. Our customers are free to reject any optic that they have a problem with and we will replace it.

Lynn

That's about the fifth time I've heard that joke. And it is a joke.

[CarstenW]

28 years ago I bought a 165 mm Super Angulon from Sinar that was very bad quality.I costed something like four grand. The negatives had low resolution and were soft. I sent it to Sinar and Sinar sent it to Schneider and they said it was "within tolerance". I avoided Schneider after that.

Once I was walking down the street, and suddenly the air was kinda foul. Since then I have tried not to breathe too much.

[Greg Miller]

Some people are suggesting that all Linhof lenses should be better than all Schneider lenses. To do this, someone would have to test ALL Schneider lenses, and give ONLY the best of the best ONLY to Linhof. That doesn't seem like a very realistic thing to do from a manufacturing and logistical perspective, and I doubt many could afford a Linhof lens if this were the case. Having a minimum standard for Linhof seems much more reasonable to me; "minimum standard" does not imply "low standard".

[Jack Dahlgren]

Some people are suggesting that all Linhof lenses should be better than all Schneider lenses. To do this, someone would have to test ALL Schneider lenses, and give ONLY the best of the best ONLY to Linhof. That doesn't seem like a very realistic thing to do from a manufacturing and logistical perspective, and I doubt many could afford a Linhof lens if this were the case. Having a minimum standard for Linhof seems much more reasonable to me; "minimum standard" does not imply "low standard".

Exactly. Many of the Schneider lenses met the Linhof requirements. Bob has said that some needed additional cleaning and a smaller number may have needed disassembly and were sent back. So the odds are pretty good that that the Schneider lenses that weren't set to Linhof had the same quality. Thus the best lenses from Schneider are as good as the best from Linhof, but the worst lenses from Schneider may be worse than Linhof.

If Linhof was sending back a substantial number of lenses, then they probably would have gone to a different manufacturer or Schneider might have eventually said "enough is enough" so since the relationship continued for many years, it was likely good for both sides.

Rather than "cherry picking" I think it is more like lemon picking, where Linhof got rid of the lemons, rather than only selecting the best.

[Sevo]

Thus the best lenses from Schneider are as good as the best from Linhof, but the worst lenses from Schneider may be worse than Linhof.

... assuming that Schneider did the same testing for direct distribution as for Linhof.
I consider it unlikely that Schneider did a final QC for the Linhof lenses, given that they were cooperating partners and the labour cost at Linhof and Schneider (both in Bavaria) will be (and have been) quite similar. A pre-check to similar standards would be poor economy for both sides, and if either had any level of administration outside their engineering departments, they will doubtlessly have negotiated a staging that avoided duplicating labour and associated cost.

[Bob Salomon]

... assuming that Schneider did the same testing for direct distribution as for Linhof.
I consider it unlikely that Schneider did a final QC for the Linhof lenses, given that they were cooperating partners and the labour cost at Linhof and Schneider (both in Bavaria) will be (and have been) quite similar. A pre-check to similar standards would be poor economy for both sides, and if either had any level of administration outside their engineering departments, they will doubtlessly have negotiated a staging that avoided duplicating labour and associated cost.

It should be pointed out that Linhof sells both Linhof tested Rodenstock and Schneider lenses and the test equipmant used is designed and made by Rodenstock (a Bavarian company also). When they were still made Linhof also tested the other lenses that they sold like T-Nikkor Tele lenses (the only Nikon made lenses that they sold) as well as the Lenses from Zeiss and others when they were being manufactured.

Essentially the test that Linhof performs basically duplicates the final QC test used by Rodenstock.

[Jack Dahlgren]

It should be pointed out that Linhof sells both Linhof tested Rodenstock and Schneider lenses and the test equipmant used is designed and made by Rodenstock (a Bavarian company also). When they were still made Linhof also tested the other lenses that they sold like T-Nikkor Tele lenses (the only Nikon made lenses that they sold) as well as the Lenses from Zeiss and others when they were being manufactured.

Essentially the test that Linhof performs basically duplicates the final QC test used by Rodenstock.

Thanks, that is useful information.

[Arne Croell]

It feels like we've been through this discussion a dozen times...
Anyway, I was at a Linhof Seminar in 1990 or 1991, and they showed us and demonstrated the setup for their acceptance testing. Apart from checking for dust etc., the main instrument was the Rodenstock-built Siemens star projector that Bob alludes to. They also had a few bad examples to demonstrate problems, like a decentered lens. From what they said, it was essentially the way Jack Dahlgren mentioned, weeding out the lemons. They did not give any statistics of the rejection rate although the question was asked. They did share an anecdote, that by accident one of the suppliers sent back a lens already rejected by Linhof and it had a handwritten sticker on it, "not for Linhof" (no information who it was and when it happened).

As an aside, Bad Kreuznach, where Schneider is located, is NOT in Bavaria, but in Rhineland-Palatinate (Rheinland-Pfalz). Labor cost would be similar to Bavaria though, that much is true.

[Lynn Jones]

Hi Bob,

What I said was true, of that particular company and several others. I understand that Linhof, and various other companies often test a certain percentage of the incoming optics, rarely all of them, but that is their perogative. In three of the companies with which I was involved, I tested hundreds of lenses coming in, most of which were within the specified performances. During that time in my life, I had grave questions regarding the quality of certain leaf shutters. If pre-selected means by the buyer/re-seller I agree completely with you, if by the optics manufacturer then their own quality control holds forth.

Lynn