When will sheet film be obsolete?

[Frank Petronio]

There is a video out there I saw last year of a fella who made a home garage-based film manufacturing machine. He need the base material and the chemistry, but I imagine the raw materials in some base form are always going to be industrial staples. We use films for more than just film.

With the demise of the large corporate manufacturers, I can see ex-Kodak employees setting up a small-scale operation.

And price-gouging. Well, not gouging in the evil sense, they would have to charge a lot in order to make it work... it won't be cheap. Check the prices of that Impossible Project stuff lately?

[BrianShaw]

Check the prices of that Impossible Project stuff lately?

I've heard the term "recouping one's investment" in other situations. I think that is what IP is doing, but they'll have to recoup from someone other than me!

[BetterSense]

I was talking to a guy to order a stainless steel sink for my darkroom. He said he's never been as busy making and selling these -- and large ones too.

It makes sense that as overall demand drops, and larger/less agile entities get out of the business, that other companies will experience an increase in business. It doesn't mean that overall demand is increasing, though.

[cyrus]

It makes sense that as overall demand drops, and larger/less agile entities get out of the business, that other companies will experience an increase in business. It doesn't mean that overall demand is increasing, though.

True and also lets also not forget that even the death of film doesnt necessarily mean an end to darkrooms (and demand for sinks.) Many alternative processes can start with a digital negative and finish in a darkroom.

However there's a core of people who are still dedicated to film. Me for example. I just picked up an old Rollei that uses glass backs and plan on figuring out how to coat them with emulsion if I have to, should film die off. We will form a continuing market for a manufacturer. The number of available films may be signficantly reduced, and the prices may shoot up, but film won't disappear. Will it be "obsolete" is a different issue which depends on how you define that word and whether it is a relevant question (arguably, film is already obsolete.)

I sorta enjoy the fact that I'm sort of a minority in being a film photographer in world full of teenagers armed with cellphone cams. That makes my work all the more unique. I was at a nude workshop a few days ago where I was the only one using a film camera. The other photogs were ignoring the beautiful nude and were instead fascinated by my film backs! Many of them told me that they intended on buying film cameras. While many film photographers go digital, it seems that at least some digital photogs go film!

[stevebrot]

To the question in the original post...

Sheet film will become obsolete when it no longer has a purpose and people cease to use it.

Steve

[Michael Kadillak]

Sheet film will be around for many many years. Fact is that we still have an enormous selection of this product as we speak and others will enter the market if the opportunity exists. Everyone is freaking out about a natural market consolidation that needed to take place because clearly this is a different market for sheet film than it was 10 + years ago. I cannot tell you how many times I hear of people frustrated by the fact that the images that their technology produces looks virtually identical to a myriad of others posting images in the same arena. They try to tweek things to get their "look" and there is only so much that they can do. Film on the other hand has a lock on the individual personalities of a wide range of B&W film in a wide range of developers let alone how one prints these negs. That alone is why film will continue to draw the interest of photographers that want to reach for the pinnacle of where art and craft come together.

[engl]

While I'm just one person with a singular experience, I'm an under 30 photographer that shoots 4x5 and is in the process of learning wet plate; I personally know over a dozen other 20-30 year olds actively shooting LF. It's alive and well (at least in my circle of friends and acquaintances) as it offers a counterpoint and a sanctuary from digital, digital, digital.

On a related note, a lot of what's being talked about in this thread with regards to LF vs. digital has been technical (sensor size, cost of production, etc.), but the thing that I think will guarantee the viability of LF for many years to come is the experience.

The view camera comes built in with a ritual, and rituals are psychologically electrifying. Think of the Japanese tea ceremony, a Catholic mass, or even your morning routine--there is a meditative, transporting mysticism whenever there's a ritual involved (yeah, I read a lot of Joe Campbell). The view camera is slow, allowing all of the senses to steep and absorb every stimulus surrounding the photographer. It's really beautiful, and it's unique to the format/tools.

Sheet film will be obsolete when the companies that make it decide to stop production. Like Polaroid. But I sincerely believe that as long as there are people caught by the experience of shooting LF, people will continue to find a way to keep the process alive. Even if it means establishing a sovereignty apart from manufacturers (one of the reasons I'm teaching myself wet plate, including how to make/procure materials on my own).

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to advocate for the "spiritual/existential" aspect of LF because I feel naming it is critical to grasp its importance and continued relevance.

Actually, Im under 30 too. Unlike you I do not know any other people around my age doing this kind of photography, but I guess that could change if I interacted with local photographers more. Either way, I think it is pretty safe to say that most LF photographers are older than the average digital photographer.

My point is that the things you speak about, the experience of shooting a 4x5 film camera (a beautiful process indeed!) is something not widely known or appreciated by younger photographers. Anyone with a photographic interest anytime between year 1840 and 2000 knows the darkroom, understands film, learnt about view cameras in photographic classes, were surrounded by photography from LF cameras, had people around them owning/using LF gear, maybe even had one themselves. Even with this huge exposure to LF, there are not a whole lot of people doing LF today.

Now consider young people with a photographic interest. The world revolves around digital, a photography class is taught with DSLRs and Photoshop, "dads camera" is a Canon 5Dmk2 now. They think it is cool to see someone composing under the dark cloth because they have never seen it with their own eyes before, it is historical.

The above is not a bad thing, but I think it will greatly reduce the number of people getting into large format, which will eventually affect film/development price and availability. Considering the extremely small quantities which are sufficient for maintaining some specialist film today, the world will probably vanish in an accidentally created black hole before 4x5 and 8x10 film goes away.

[paulr]

What technological reasons would that be? Speciality films have always been made in volumes far below a huge industrial scale. That photographic films generally have been made in very large scale throughout the past forty years is due to market demand and the usual economies of scale applicable to every product - which determine the pricing rather than feasibility.

Are any of those specialty films manufactured with equipment designed for small runs, or are they made on the same huge volume machines used to make the mainstream films?

[Wayne Crider]

The more who shoot, the more it will be around, tho I worry about the color film. Recessions and the cheapening of photo sales are probably the biggest threats to any film continuance nowadays. Already some of the smaller sizes are disappearing because of poor sales.

But If you are interested in making a film camera I would be very interested in one in this design, although I read they are originally plate cameras.
http://www.antiquewoodcameras.com/waterbur.htm

Once my current 4x5 project is finished I may try and do it myself if I can get a better look at one. It looks pretty straightforward as a project camera and very classy looking, and that brass lens certainly makes it appealing.

[Thalmees]

the world will probably vanish in an accidentally created black hole before 4x5 and 8x10 film goes away.

Film will continue as an art medium, tool and process, due to unique characteristics. Market and demand has no effect to do here, I think.

From one side, the process of image making by film is very predictable to the last single detail. The process is very manageable within the boundaries of art making. This is when compared to older alternative methods(which is made more popular nowadays).

From another side, image making by film, has a very scientifically robust and historically detailed and proven methodology that combine the aesthetic and the scientific together. This is when compared to the newer digital medium.
Also, image making by film has an authentic and un-fake-able tool and process(within the artistic boundaries). From what has been observed for the last 10 years, digital images are almost always manipulated beyond art boundaries with no system of methodology or authentic barriers. It lacks the definition and some times lacking the artistic purpose.

Film, compared to both(older alternative & newer digital), has the best aesthetic and scientific sense, taste and logic. This is(IMO) what made film survived and to continue beyond even any optimistic expectations.

Of course, as an application tool for professional purposes(that should be more flexible to the public and market demands), film will not continue its popularity as a functional/application tool, compared to digital, due to decreased market demand. Public & Market demands on photos are for functional/application purposes, and that demands are not concerned with aesthetics, scientific, reliability and authentic part of image making process of photographic film. Demand alone, is not enough to make film to disappear in the future. Other classical arts continued longer and will continue with no queries when they will disappear.