Please excuse my ignorance if I ask a silly question about camera spot meter.
Is there a medium format back*digital* that can take spot readings in L channel readings?
I am thinking a hand held device is not the ticket, but rather something that spot meters through the lens with very small apeture settings to look for significant highlight and significant shadow L channel numbers.
is this for film or do you intend to get a digital back for a medium format camera? i am confused.... for film, a hand held device like a pentax digital spotmeter is a wonderful tool and you just measure the significant highlight/shadow and everything else in between... reads out in "EV" same as the scale on the Hasselblad and other camers which can then be used with a dial to pick shutter speed/aperature combinations. nothing could be simpler. with black & white film, put the shadow EV you read on zone III and measure the highlight EV to see where it falls... if on Zone VI, use normal development; if on Zone VII use N-1; if on Zone V use N.... etc
exactly why do you need to read out in "L" channel and what would you do with the information if it did?
You could look at the following to see if it serves your purpose:
http://www.konicaminolta.com/instrum...110/index.html
The normal minolta spot meter and spot meter F both give luminance readings but you need to use a lookup table to convert to cd/mē. They don't have all the features of the above link. Minolta meters have a tripod mount hole in their base.
But as I understand it, the L,a,b colour space is three dimensional and an L reading on its own is meaningless without the a and b components, so if you are thinking of the L from L,a,b then I don't think any of the above meters will do what you want but I could be wrong.
Don't know if any digital backs are able to use part of the sensor as a spot meter but since its digital all you need to do is take the picture and then look at a single point of the image to see its L component.
The following may do it:
http://www.konicaminolta.com/instrum...fications.html
Ok I knew it would be a bit confusing.I am sure the following will not be any easier.
I use the L numbers for my density settings in PS to set my aim points for various print media. Actually I have set L aim points for all the different material I use and keep very defined notes on what papers, processes hold tonality.
I am more of a printer than a photographer, and I am hoping that someday I will have a medium format digital back , or Betterlight scanning back to capture images. I am hoping to transport L readings from lets say clouds, and deep shadows and make sure that I keep these number in capture and then apply them to PS and my prints.
My thought process is to do this through the camera/lens system rather than through an hand held digital spot meter. I also want to have LAB readings and I am not sure if there is such a device.
A few years back I had a discussion with Sandy King and he stated something like ** give me a file that has 100 shades, from white to black and I can make a digital file that works with any material.**
This has always stuck in the back of my head , much like the 10 zones of the system to place critical info in the highlights and shadows, I am curious of a metering system that works in a 0-100 density system much like the L channel in LAB.
When capturing info , placing critical info at specific L numbers in my mind would be the ultimate in Zone System capture with current equipment and my many printing processes.
For example my silver prints off a lambda have highlight with detail and shadow with detail L numbers of 4 for shadow and 96 for highlight, anything beyond this is specular or deep black.
But for inkjet photo rag these numbers change to 7 for shadow and 93 for highlight.
You are right a digital meter handheld pretty well does what I need, but I am thinking about applying exact density numbers for specific output at time of capture rather than a 10 zone system. This ability would allow me to set the points I require to capture for each process at finer increments much like expansion and contraction of film.
Am i over thinking this?? or should I just consider keeping a flat file and bumping contrast in PS much like what is done in scanning.
I am sure this is pretty confusing but any help would be appreciated.
Originally Posted by williamtheis
I could not find the link
If I could take lab number readings at time of capture what a bonus. Knowing the three channels and biases would be awesome.
I really love working LAB for defining colour balance and setting my end points but since I am always at the end of the system, darkroom I have not done much research on meters and how they work within camera systems.
I would imagine if you can open PS very quickly like with the phase system or probably Betterlight you would then be able to see the channels , but I am specifically thinking of a metering system onboard that reads in LAB as you work and not having to open the image in PS to see your info pallette.
this unit works in L,a,b
http://www.konicaminolta.com/instrum...fications.html
but you have to put it against the subject. I'm not sure what you are metering. A print or something else? Are you thinking that you can tell your customers what L numbers to use so you can match them in printing or what?
LAB is not a colour space a lot of workers are comfortable in. Some of my clients get it and others would think I am talking in my mother tongue Moronica.
But I do tell them now to read the L channel in PS and make sure they are not exceeding the end points with significant shadow or highlight.
I am wondering if I can apply this logic at time of original capture.
I am referring to being able when photographing , metering significant highlight and significant shadow and applying L density numbers to them . This could mean highlights on skin, highlights on clouds, shadows in deep shade .
Kind of like tailor making exposure at time of capture to minimize PS manipulation to solve bad capture.
by putting the end points where I want them then all the information would fall between, which is easy to manipulate.
This is something I think about when not working at my job , which is kind of pitiful, but whenever I am outside I am trying to guess the L values of different objects.
I need a life.
thanks for the link btw
If the photographer is using a tethered laptop then they see the image immediately and check and correct lighting/exposure accordingly. So I don't see that checking L,a,b values is a problem unless they don't have a tethered system. A lot of studios use tethered to get perfect exposure. A lot of location photographers use tethered too. So telling them to work to high and low points shouldn't be a problem except that what they see on a tethered system may not be what you can get out of the image with raw conversion.
what you are suggesting is that the photographer should be able to adjust levels in camera. i.e. adjust the dynamic range of the camera. B+W film users do this via ISO and development controls. Colour film users do it to a much lesser degree. I don't know if digital backs can do it. But that is why people chimp at histograms, to check if everything is in range of the sensor.
Yes, but rather than looking at histograms, I would want a numbering system where I can place siginficant tones to a number that I would then know transfers to my end output.
There probably is such a system but I just haven't looked hard enough.
There is a phase here and my business partner uses it tethered to a laptop but I do not think he can quickly get L numbers while shooting.
I am going to go on a bit of a tangent here but here goes.
What do sky's look light , is there areas of really non information, is the bottom of clouds a different colour and monster difference in density, is there blue in deep shadows , How do we percieve nature and then transfer to specific looks on paper.
I recently have started taking photographs a bit more outdoors, and being a printer, I look at densitys and colours from a finished print perspective. I need to see the results.
Years ago I met and saw a grouping of photographs by Gordon Hutchings at Eight Elm, I believe Richard K from this forum brought him to Canada.
At the time I thought his prints were way to bright, over the top in fact, but was grudgingly acceptance of his remarkable highlight detail.
Les Mclean from England makes very beautiful prints and one of his specialtys was holding highlight detail.
Many Many years ago I was a maskmaker for Cibachrome prints and we would not only make contrast reducing masks, but make highlight protection masks that then would be used with the transparancy to keep critical detail in the upper highlights when making the contrast reducing Mask.
All the above are using different methods to achieve somewhat the same thing, Pyro Hardening developer which limits highlight migration or blooming while the neg develops out.
Split contrast printing with using 0 and 5 as a team on highlights to create separation.
and Mask making to protect delicate details that either get blown out with exposure or dulled down with contrast reducing mask.
Now after about 5 years of intense PS learning curve , I am wondering is there not a way digitally to set points exactly where you want.
How does one squeeze out precision detail at both end points?
I am thinking an onboard densitomether on the camera that speaks the same language that PS and final printers understand.
If this sounds crazy, go out look at the sky, you will be amazed that there are points within the clouds that acutally record 0 information, and by printing this area down to detail may be a mistake.
same goes for deep shadows.
Our eyes adjust for these differences and a way to control them would be awesome.
I think Mr Adams and others were visionary with the Zone system and if there system worked in a 0-100 world, why would we want to work in 0-255 RGB but rather a density system much more like the ZS .
I know this may show my limited experience behind the camera , but enquiring minds need to know.
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