Lightweight 54 vs panoramic 612

[Jennifer Waak]

Neil, I've been on a similar quest myself, but in my case I'm looking for something between my 35mm and my A-S monorail that will be easy to travel with when the tripod just can't go along. Finding something with the larger neg and shift capability is way more expensive than I had ever dreamed.

I've been looking at the Cambo Wide (the new DS is 3.7lb with the 47mm lens on it), the Silvestri (although reviews say it's not hand-holdable), the Horseman 6x9 or 6x12, and some of the Fuji rangefinders. Ebony also just came out with a Finesse, but it's so new I can't find any real info or pricing on it.

My ideal setup (were price no object) would be the Cambo -- super-light, lateral and vertical shift, lenses from 38 - 72mm, and takes anything from rollfilm backs of 6x45 to 4x5 sheet film. From what I've read it is very hand-holdable, but also has a tripod mount. It has a viewfinder that attaches to the top. Robert White carries them.

Interestingly enough, I had recently concluded that I wasn't going to get what I want for a reasonable price so I'm renting a Mamiya 7(II) this weekend to see if that comes close enough (I'm desperately after that larger neg for my travel photos).

Good luck and please let me know what you decide and why.

-Jen

[L. Wolfe]

If you are serious about using only one lens, then an obvious choice would be the Linhof Technorama 612PC II. I recently struggled with the decision between the 612PC and the Ebony 23S. The decision boiled down to the need for telephoto capability (given my particular project). If it weren't for that, I would have definitely gone with the 612PC II. It has perspective control, a 1:2 aspect ratio, the ability to use both 120 and 220 film, and is compact, portable and light. The only downside is that it is not a rangefinder; nor does it have a groundglass for fine-focusing. These issues can be overcome though with practice. If you are looking for something similar to the Mamiya setup, then checkout the 612PC II.

[Ed Candland]

Another option might be the Toho that Kerry is fond of. http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/toho.htm

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Neil,

Common misconception: Camera movements do not increase depth of field (only red ucing the diameter of the aperture does). Camera movements (specifically tilts and swings) allow you to change the plane of focus. In the three dimensional wo rld in which we live and photograph, with large format cameras and comparatively long focal length lenses, it is very often necessary to combine both camera mov ements (to best locate the plane of focus) and stopping down (to f22, f32 and so metimes beyond) to get the overall sharpness desired.

That said, depending on how wide you plan to shoot with this 6x12 camera you see k, you may, or may not, need tilt and swing movements. If you're only going to be using ultrawide lenses like the 38mm or 47mm Super Symmar XLs, you may be abl e to get by without tilts and swings simply by stopping down and focusing at the hyperfocal distance. On the other hand if you plan to do a lot of shooting wit h longer lenses (110mm, 150mm, etc.) you may find these movements indispensible. I guess only you can answer that. Others have already mentioned the 6x12 Hors eman and Linhof models. So, I'll toss out a couple more options:

If you think you might need swings and tilts, as Ed mentioned above, I am fond o f the Toho FC-45X when weight is a concern. If you follow the link Ed provided above you can read ALL about this camera (in excruciating detail). Executive su mmary: My slightly modified camera weighs 2 lb. 12? oz. and handles lenses from 47mm XL - 500mm telephoto (300 - 360mm non-telephoto) with full movements on bo th standards. To get decent rise/fall, and shift with the lenses in the 47mm XL - 65mm range, you will need the Toho Eccentric Lens Panel.

NOTE: Be VERY skeptical of manufacturer's published weight claims - especially f or so-called "lightweight" and "ultralight" models. I have weighed actual sampl es of several leading (and in some cases VERY expensive) 4x5 models and have fou nd most to weigh SUBSTANTIALLY (in some cases >25%) more than advertized. My To ho FC-45X, on the other hand, came in at 1/2 oz. lighter than advertized as I re ceived it. The 2 lb. 12? oz. weight listed abve is the actual weigt of the came ra as I carry it in the field complete with ground glass protector and tripod qu ick release plate.

If you want to go even lighter, Toho makes the FC-45Mini model that weighs betwe en 700 and 880g depending on how it is configured. I haven't used this camera, but you can see the specs at:

http://www.toho-machine.co.jp/FC-45Mini.htm and http://www.toho-machine.co.jp/Mini-2.htm

It is horizontal only and has NO movements. However, if all you need is rise/fa ll and shift, you can use the Eccentric Lens Panel to get up to 15mm of displace ment in any direction. From the specs, it looks like ti will handle lenses down to the 38mm SA XL. To me, this camera is the functional equivalent of the Hors eman and Linhof 6x12 shift models, or the Cambo Wide, but without the ability fo r hand held photography (not an issue for me since I ALWAYS use a tripod, but it may be an issue for you). It is also cheaper and lighter than these other came ras and can accept a wider range of MUCH less expensive lenses. Basically, if y ou want movements, you'd have to buy an Eccentric Lens Panel for every lens. At $225 each, these are not cheap, but combined with standard, off-the-shelf large format lenses, it is still a LOT more affordable than the dedicated helical mou nted lenses for the Horseman, Linhof and Cambo. Especially if you plan to event ually use more than one lens. Plus, you have the option of picking the best LF lenses to match your needs from all four manufacturers (maybe something like a 3 8mm Super Angulon XL, 55mm APO Grandagon, 90mm f8 Nikkor SW set). The point bei ng you are not locked into a dedicated mount with lenses from a single manufactu rer.

One odd "feature" of the Toho models is the method used to switch between vertic al and horizontal orientation. Without going into details here (see my web site review), this operation on the Toho FC-45X takes about 25 - 30 seconds (compare d to ~5 seconds for a more conventional 4x5). With the Toho Mini, you have to f lop the whole camera on it's side for verticals (like a 35mm, or in this case, t he Horseman or Linhof 6x12s). I'm not sure what your shooting style is, but if you will be primarily shooting horizontals, this may not be an issue at all. An d for the occasional vertical, it's no big deal. Of course, unlike the Horseman and Linhof dedicated 6x12 models, either Toho will also allow you to shoot 4x5 should you desire.

For the roll film back, you might look into the Shen Hao 6x12 back. I currently have one and can verify that it easily fits my Toho FC-45X (I haven't tried in on a Toho Mini, but it SHOULD fit that model as well). This back is of rather crude design by today's standards, but part of the beauty is in the simplicity ( not much that can go wrong). It uses a window to read the frame numbers off the paper backing on 120 film (so it won't work with 220, but then neither does the Horseman 6x12 back). The other attractive feature of this back is the cost - o nly $350 new.

For a tripod, I use a modified (center column hacked off) Gitzo 1227 with a Velb on PH-253MG magnesium ballhead. This combo weighs about 3 lb. 4 oz. and is abou t as light as I'd recommend for this application (although, the Gitzo 1127 might also be adaquate).

The Toho cameras are VERY unique. I love my FC-45X for backpacking The more I u se it, the more I appreciate the cleverness of the design. The further I carry it, the more I appreciate the lightweight. When the Toho Mini first came out, I was baffled about the intended application for a horizontal only 4x5 camera wit h no movements. Once I had the Shen Hao 6x12 back and the Toho Eccentric Lens P anel in hand, it all made sense. It's a poor man's tilt and shift 6x12 camera t hat accepts a wide range of affordably priced, lightweight lenses. I have no id ea of you would be happy with either of these cameras (they are not for everyone ). I'm just tossing out this information for your consideration.

Kerry

[Neil Pendlebury]

Just to say thankyou to everyone who contributed to this thread. Very much appreciated.

[Lloyd Chamber]

Neil,

If depth of field is an issue, you have to stick with 35mm or the equivalent or you must have tilts or swings.

Have you tried the panoramic adapter for the Mamiya? It uses 35mm film with a double-wide exposure. You could use the 7 II's 43mm and 50mm lenses and those should provide quite reasonable depth of field-- you can't get more without going to 35mm or using tilts/swings.

Before you conclude that the detail is not adequate, I recommend thinking about a few things: 1. Get a first-rate drum scan and then get a Lightjet print made from the scan by somebody who knows what they are doing. You can get a heck of a lot out of 35mm. I have seen 4 X 6 feet prints made from 35mm and they look stunning.

2. I think for your described usage, there are few better choices than the Mamiya 7 II--it can shoot 120/220 and 35mm film (in double- wide). Skip the larger format, and instead get a small lightweight carbon fiber tripod (eg Gitzo 1128) and develop perfect technique with it. Perfect technique (rock steady, appropriate focus point) on 35mm film, especially double wide can produce excellent results.

Lloyd