Adventures in Capitalism

[Kevin M Bourque]

Hi Guys and Gals -

If you're not aware of it, there is a forum on photo.net that allows anyone to d escribe their experiences with photographic retailers, good and bad. It's raw, unfiltered data, so don't take everything you read as gospel. But, the large-sc ale trends are probably close to the truth.

I bring this up for a couple of reasons. First, It's a valuable resource if you 're planning to make a purchase. This kind of data wasn't readily available in the pre-internet days.

Second, it's a good place to send people when they ask "should I buy from Klik-K lak Kamera"?

Lastly, as consumers, we should be in the business of encouraging (and rewarding ) fair and ethical business owners. As a case in point, I recently made a small purchase from a company called Focal Point in Sanford, Fl. There was a misunde rstanding about exactly what I was getting (truth be told, it may have been MY m isunderstanding, not his). Anyway, there was no argument; he assumed I was corr ect and telling the truth, and immediately resolved the situation in my favor, n o questions asked. He may have even lost money on the deal. But, you can be su re that if I ever need similar items, he gets first crack at my business. He's already shown me that his interests lie in good customer service.

I took a minute to thank him, and them made a positive comment on the forum. It didn't cost me anything, and it might steer some business his way. A good expe reince for both of us, in my mind.

I understand that this is not strictly a large format issue, so why am I bending the rules to post here? Most of us don't mind spending money on our obsession. As a community, we have amassed a substantial database of experience, and it r eflects a good bit of buying power. We can't eliminate all the unethical busine sses out there, but maybe we can steer a few customers in the right direction.

Thanks for listening.

BTW, to find the forum, go to www.photo.net, click on the ?Community? menu, and select ?User Recommendations?.

[Jonathan Brewer]

I just got through checking this out, and it's must reading, especially for folks new to buying/ordering gear.

I almost got burned very badly by one of the outfits that everybody has given a 'thumbs down' on, and I'll tell anybody who'll listen, don't buy from them, C***** Camera.

I saw their ad over the 'net about a Mamiya C330S TLR which they called Mint-, for $400 and change and I bit. That's after calling to confirm that it was Mint-, they told me point blank that it was not a wedding camera that had been beaten to death, that it was quite the opposite with only a 'mark' on the back near the bottom. They assured me that I had a 6 month warranty.

What I got was tired, worn, and someone had pried open the back at one time. There was severe corrosion at the bottom of the camera, 'red looking rust', it was that bad. I didn't bother opening the camera or testing it, I put it right back in the box and shipped it back.

I called them, told them I didn't like what had been sent, and that I wanted my money back. They told me that their idea of a solution was that they thought that I should keep the camera and take $75.00 which was about the best they could do. They said that they didn't have the camera back anyway, which was a lie because it had been a month between my return of their camera and my call.

I waited another month, called and asked them if they had the camera, they said yes but they were upset because I had broken the camera, and that a refund would not be coming. I told them that I had broken nothing, that if necessary, that I could fly to NY to get my money, and that I wasn't going to go away or settle this for peanuts. They talked some shit, and then two weeks later I got my money.

There's a long list of 'good guys' that took the 'bad taste' out of my mouth, Robert White, Mr. Cad, B&H, Ries, Equinox, Freestyle, Steve Grimes and I'm sure others can add to this list.

[Eugene]

We're talking large format here. There are only a few photo dealers in the U.S.A. where you can find sales people that even know what large format is. Every dealer and manufacturer that advertises in View Camera magazine is honest and reputable. I wish I could say that for the advertisers in all photo publications. I use that guideline for my purchases of new and used equipment. Purchase everything by telephone and use a credit card. Don't expect the person that takes your phone order to know anything about the item you are ordering. Do your research before you call and give the order taker the catalogue number, if possible. You may see a large format camera, lens ,etc. on display in a camera store,but don't expect anyone in the store to have any accurate info about that item. It will probably be priced un- realistically. I speak from over 50 years experience with photo dealers.

[Bob Salomon]

"There are only a few photo dealers in the U.S.A. where you can find sales people that even know what large format is."

How about Pro Camera - White River Junction, VT, E.P.Levine Boston, Symonds, Hartford, Ken Hansen Photo, Ken Mar, Foto Care, Photo Habitat, Photo Gizzmmo, Lens & Repro, RIT Bookstore, Hahn, Rowe in NY, Camera Care in Philly, Pro Set, Dover Photo, Fishkin in N NJ, Gasser, Bear Images, K&S, Samys, Bel Air, Cals, Pauls, Nelsons, Glazers, Helix, Mid West, Quality Camera, F11, PPR, Photomark, Arlington Camera, Abbey Camera, Mid City, Schillers, S&S Optika, Optecs, Casey's cameras, Central Camera, I.P.A,.S, K&R, Mile High, Mikes, North County, Photo Barn, Classic Camera, Reimers, there are many dealers who know large format and how to use and sell it in the U.S.know and sell large format in the U.S. Perhaps you have limited your contacts so you are not aware of them all? I certainly have not listed them all here.

[Eugene]

Bob, I had the feeling that you would bob-up on this one. Over the years, I have either dealt with, or visited at least twelve of the HP marketing clients you listed. Have you ever gone into those stores as a customer? I have, and except for Rod at Photomark, Jim at Midwest, Jeff at Quality, and Jeff at Badger Graphic. I stand by my statement. Arlington Camera --- are you serious??

[Bob Salomon]

Sorry, Eugene but yes I visit all of these stores, and more. As well as seeing many of them at consmer shows.

There are far more good dealers then I listed above and those, as well as the others give professional service.

[Jonathan Brewer]

I have dealt with Rod and Photomark, I had a substantial deposit with him for gear, and decided to go in another direction, they promtly and cheerfully sent me back my deposit, no hassle, no sweat.

Their prices are great, and in the future, I wouldn't hesitate to use them. Chalk it off to a bad memory, I didn't think of them firsthand, but I have great respect for how they treated me for a deal that didn't go through.

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Bob,

With all due respect, your experience with the dealers on your laundry list is a s a supplier - not as a customer. Note: Eugene did NOT ask if you've visited t hese dealers, he asked specifically: "Have you ever gone into those stores as a customer?" While I don't dispute for a second that you have had positive experi ences with these dealers as a supplier, those experiences are totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand - which dealers provide friendly, knowledgeable servi ces to their CUSTOMERS.

In my personal experience, I have gotten the best service from dealers who speci alize in large format (i.e. Badger Graphic, the F-STOPS here) or at least have a large format specialist on staff (Midwest Photo Exchange, Robert White). Altho ugh I try to buy locally when possible, the amount of LF gear displayed in my lo cal dealerships is almost non-existant. Even among the dealers in the NW who ha ve sales staff knowledgeable in LF equipment, the amount of actual LF gear in st ock ranges from none to minimal. I realize that this is a function of market ec onomics and although I'm not exactly located in some rural backwater, I understa nd that it doesn't make sense for most of my local dealers to stock ANY new LF g ear, let along a selection of multiple brands and models. Camera World of Orego n, one of the largest mail order dealerships in the world, is less than 8 miles from my doorstep and they RARELY have any new LF gear in stock - occasionally an entry level Toyo monorail and/or a Nikkor lens or two. In all my years living in the Portland, OR area, I've never seen any local dealer have more than one ne w LF camera in stock at any given time. That makes comparison shopping a bit di fficult.

For example, if I was intertested in comparing say a Canham DLC to an Arca Swiss F Line to a Linhof TK45S, I'm confident that there isn't a single dealer within a 600 mile drive of my house that would have all three of these models in stock if I walked through their doors on any given day. If I wanted to compare top o f the line wooden cameras, say Wisner, Ebony and Phillips, I'm sure that distanc e would grow to over 1000 miles (likely substantially more).

Point being, that unless you live in New York, Los Angeles, or one of a few othe r select cities fortunate enough to have a LF speciality dealer, the internet an d reputable mail order dealers are the only practical way to shop for many of us users of LF equipment. I think that's one reason why the online LF community i s so active and the sharing of information so generous and free flowing. Given the fact that I'm not going to be able to comparison shop locally, I rely heavil y on the opinions expressed on this forum, the reviews on Tuan's site, and reput able mail order dealers (like Badger Graphic, Robert White, Midwest Photo Exchan ge and the F-STOPS here - BTW, I don't mean to purposely exclude other dealers l ike Photomark and Quality Camera, it's just that I don't have experience buying gear from them. I believe that is the spirit behind Kevin's post - the sharing of good and bad mail order experiences, and while Bob has provided us with a lau ndry list of dealers that carry his company's products, what Kevin was asking fo r was feedback from CUSTOMERS.

As a customer, my favorite dealer is Badger Graphic Sales:

http://www.badgergraphic.com/

They have a great selection of LF gear and carry many brands not available elswh ere in the US. They have great prices and very knowledgeable service. They shi p promptly and stand behind what they sell. All in all, I can't imagine a more perfect combination of selction, prices and service.

Based on my personal experience, Robert White in the UK offers service on par wi th Badger Graphic.

http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/

With online shopping and reliable, affordable international shipping, I do not h esitate to buy from this "overseas" dealer.

I have also received great service from Midwest Photo Exchange:

http://www.mpex.com/

and the F-STOPS here:

http://www.thefstop.com/menu.html

I'd also like to include a plug for my favorite local dealer, Pro Photo Supply:

http://www.prophotosupply.com/

Although they don't usually have much new LF gear in stock, they do usually have a decent selection of used LF lenses on hand at reasonable prices (I've bought several from them over the years). They also have a well stocked rental departm ent, and a great selection of LF film in their walk-in refrigerated film room - along with all the other non-LF specific items I crave (books, magazines, filter s, presentation and storage supplies, etc.).

Standard disclaimer, I have no affliation, other than as a satisfied customer, w ith any of the establishments I have mentioned in this post. I appreciate good service when I receive it and will continue to reward these suppliers by purchas ing my equipment and supplies from them. I urge others to do likewise. LF is a niche market. Those dealers who make a commitment to supporting the LF communi ty deserve our support.

Kerry

[Bob Salomon]

"With all due respect, your experience with the dealers on your laundry list is as a supplier - not as a customer"

With all due respect Kerry this is rubbish!

Like anyone in any business, plumber, engineer, lawyer, physician, dentist, etc.it is very easy to see the differences in knowledge, experience, service, etc. from one dealer or rep or salesman to another.

Besides also buying camera equipment since 1954 from camera stores and selling to camera stores since 1973 I am fully cabable of determinig dealers that provide quality service.

As one who sells to dealers I, and every other person who sells to camera stores, sees not only owners and buyers (frequently the same person) but also sales people in the store (frequently also the owner or buyer).

We see how they sell, we see the depth of their knowledge of equipment and technique by watching them wait on customers. We are used to, and expect to, having to patiently wait while they attend to customers. Frequently waiting for hours for all customer needs are attended to before buying needs. We see from in store sales trsining who can answer customer questions and who can't.

The myth that large format or professional camera stores are only in NY or LA is pure crap.

Your favorite dealer is in the backwoods of WI. Not NY. Pro Camera is in VT, Robert's in Indianapolis, Jack's is in Muncie, MidWest is in Columbus, K&R is in KY, K&S and Bear Images are in Palo Alto, Camera West is in Monterey, Dover Photo is in Dover, NY, Fiskin in Perth Amboy, Camera Care in Philly as is Mid West, Photomark is in Phoenix., Glazers and Optechs are in Seattle, Looking Glass in Berkely, Gasser in San Francisco, Dealers in Hartford and Stamford, Ct..

Quality, knowledgable, professional dealers who sell large format are located all over the country. As many as 20 years ago? No. But there are many all the less.

Do all stock what you use? No. Do all stock the large format cameras that I sell? No. But that doe not mean that they are not there to give you - the customer - service.

After all camera stores stay in business - and some of these stores are approaching or have past 100 years of being in business - by fullfilling customers needs. That means they have to give service. They do not stay in business by ignoring customers needs and questions.

[Eugene]

Thanks for your support Kerry. Your willingness to share your knowlege of Fujinon lenses convinced me to up-grade to Fujinons.I sold off my Nikkors and am now waiting for Jim, at Midwest, to bring me a Fuji 75SWD from his buying trip to Japan next week. As for Bob, just allow him the last word and let him rant and rave. A wise man once told me " Just because you've suceeded in argueing a man down, does'nt mean that you've won the arguement". By the way, Bob, I began buying photo gear and supplies in 1946. I bought my first large format camera from Detroit Camera in 1948. I was studying Photojurnalism at Wayne University. Enough, already!!