Bruce Barnbaum’s claim — 20 months later

[r.e.]

I think if Bruce spent a lifetime beating the last drop out of inkjet prints, shooting for their look and sweating over them, he would likely say the same thing in reverse.

I stopped reading after the first couple of paragraphs, because the affectation of objectivity was pretty obviously just that. It wasn't even subtle.

[willwilson]

Rick, interesting experiment, but Oriental RC is terrible. I thought we were discussing top of the line exhibition quality printing. BW fibre papers vs drum scanned digital inkjets.

[Brian Ellis]

Is Barnbaum still on this kick? This sounds like the same garbage he was spouting in a Photo Techniques article five or six years ago.

Barnbaum doesn't have a clue what he's talking about. He knows nothing about digital printing because he's never done it on any serious basis. I took a workshop from him. It was a good workshop and he was a good teacher but he made a variety of outrageous claims with no evidence to back them up. This is one of them.

I also lost a lot of respect for him when he was started belittling a poor waitress who was trying to serve breakfast to a large table of students plus Barnbaum when someone was always getting up and leaving and being replaced by someone else. The waitress was having trouble keeping the orders straight with all the comings and goings. The workshop was in Georgia and the kindest thing Barnbaum had to say about the waitress was she was a dumb redneck.

[Brian Ellis]

To me digital B&W look about as good as Resin Coated paper from the 80's. They still have a long way to go.

It sounds like you've never seen a digital b&w print on matte paper because matte paper looks nothing like RC paper. Which makes me wonder just how many b&w digital prints you've seen and who made them because many people, including me, who print digitally do so on matte paper.

[Kirk Gittings]

There is more to the comparison than what he takes into account. FWIW I am extremely fond of traditional silver prints and have been making them and exhibiting them for...geez....like 38 years? First show was in 71 or 72? But the latest digital papers and inks, like the Harmon, are truly amazing, fine natural looking surface. clean white base and D_Max to die for. After struggling with digital prints for some 3 years now I feel like I can produce one that rivals my traditional prints and in some ways surpase them-because of my ability to work the file, I feel like I have much more control of the fine tonalities of a digital print. I simply did not have enough hands or the fine motor skills to dodge and burn nearly as effectively as I can by working the file.

[Andrew O'Neill]

Print 1:

Oriental Seagull RC VC paper.
Omega D2 enlarger with condenser head. (Enlarger was set up with great care.)
Omega 4x5 negative carrier (glassless).
Peak grain focuser, the expensive kind.
Bausch and Lomb 139mm Ic Tessar enlarging lens.
Ilford Multigrade paper developer.
Toned in selenium.

RC paper?? You should have printed on a good fibre-based paper.

[rdenney]

Rick, interesting experiment, but Oriental RC is terrible. I thought we were discussing top of the line exhibition quality printing. BW fibre papers vs drum scanned digital inkjets.

It is useful to compare top-of-the-line exhibition quality prints. But only top-of-the-line exhibition-quality printers can talk about such prints.

On the other hand, only a few of us are top-of-the-line exhibition-quality printers, and I'm certainly not one of them. So, I presented a comparison relevant to me and people like me. Unfortunately, we outnumber the top-of-the-line exhibition-quality printers and to some extent drive the market.

I used RC paper before because I could never get fiber paper to dry flat enough to mount without a press, which I could neither afford nor find room to house. In order for it to be possible for me to make my own prints, I had to make some compromises, and that was one of them. I'm more likely to experiment with high-end fiber paper in the Epson than I ever was in the darkroom. But I'm going to develop my skills a bit further before making that big investment. The Epson paper is expensive enough in 17x22.

And there is no way I will have my film drum-scanned. I like having control over the process because that's why I do it--if I just wanted the best possible outcome, I'd hire one of you guys to make the photo. I sneak my work into odd hours and rare opportunities, and it's almost more than I can do just to get film processed. So, to do it at all, I have to make some compromises.

I wasn't attempting to comment on Mr. Birnbaum's comparison, but rather to provide an additional comparison to check whether his hypothesis was true or false down-market.

Rick "living within his means--sort of" Denney

[rdenney]

RC paper?? You should have printed on a good fibre-based paper.

I should have had a 1200-square-foot darkroom, too. And I should have quit my job so I'd have had time to use it.

Rick "lots of should-haves on offer" Denney

[Drew Wiley]

Bill - there are much richer silver papers on the market right now than Galerie or
Elite. I miss the tone of Portriga, but can simulate it. Fiber-based VC papers in particular are much, much better than before. I miss Brilliant bromide and the old
Seagull G, but am actually getting equal if not better results with current papers.
Yeah, there was a spell when I was getting frustrated; but when a vacuum is created
someone will probably fill it. It will indeed be fun to see how these two parallel
technologies proceed in the coming years.

[rdenney]

...I feel like I can produce one that rivals my traditional prints and in some ways surpase them-because of my ability to work the file, I feel like I have much more control of the fine tonalities of a digital print. I simply did not have enough hands or the fine motor skills to dodge and burn nearly as effectively as I can by working the file.

This isn't just true at the level of top-of-the-line exhibition-quality printers such as yourself. It's also true for boneheads like me. Maybe even more true.

Rick "for whom digital prints picked up where silver prints left off" Denney