A Challenge to the Forum

[kthompson]

Probably something else that I'd add...without going off on a tangent like I did before (sorry, must be in a bad mood today...)...is to you know, get a usable camera, but if you want to spend money (and can), get the best lens you can find.....that's all a view camera is, a box that you can put a lens on and stick a holder in.....

I'd also add, in regards to getting a good used high-end LF camera, hey---that's great for some people--but price out all the accesories you think you'll ever want before you buy the camera....lensboards, extension rails, short rails, bag bellows, extension bellows, fresnel gg attachments, viewing hoods, right angle finders, uh....let's see? compendium shades, roll film holders, etc. The cost & availability of some of that stuff can be surprising and depends alot on your location as well. Like I was saying...it's often the little things that add up the most.....I just went the opposite way, having worked with and around bare bones stuff my whole working life, I went with a basic camera and a couple of decent lenses. I figured all the fancy stuff would just be lost on me anyways....

Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy of my agency

[David Richhart]

HEY STUART... I am a bricklayer by trade, and I would like to know where you are getting your standard house bricks for 2 cents. The last bricks I ordered were 38 cents each plus sales tax!!! ;0D

[James Phillips]

Kevin,

Although I agree with some of the content in this discussion I cannot fully agree that a quality LF camera is not the way to go for a relative beginner. As for myself I was able to start on a Calumet C400 but quickly matured to a nice Ebony SV45U. Does my photographic skills warrant such an expensive camera? Would I not be able to make good photographs with a less expensive model? Of course the answers are I do not NEED an Ebony and yes I could probably accomplish the same results I presently get with a Crown Graphic. So why buy an Ebony?

Well just as when many folks invest in a new vehicle. You know what you are buying and what the car is capble of. You could have bought used but you might of had to settle for a different smaller or perhaps large car. You were not able to buy the exact model used that you wanted at the time you desired and wished to make the purchase.

More importantly you now have an investment in a new LF camera that has a specific dollar value. As long as you take care of your investment you can probably sell your expensive new camera and obtain a good portion of your money back. So this is really not such a big risk of "cash outlay" as some may think, especially if you are a relative beginner. You now have a known product and if you did your homework it will have a very good resale value. (should you change your mind about LF photography)

My vote goes for buying what best suits you budget and meets all your perceived needs. This will be different for each person, but I have learned my lesson through woodworking, "Always buy the best tools you can afford and only feel the pain once in your pocketbook. You will then always enjoy using these tools well into the future, making the job easier and more pleasurable."

Regards,

[Wayne Firth]

Well stated, Adrian. We have a saying in the US: "That's it in a nutshell!"

>>>>Adrian said: Let's not forget that, it is the eye and not the equipment that makes a good photographer although I will admit that a good equipment helps too.<<<<

[Wayne Crider]

I think more can be done for the format if the more experienced shooters take interested parties under their wing and instruct them. Show them the ropes and let them take a picture on your equipment. I also believe that practicing LF photography as an inexperienced shooter is always more interesting when sharing the experience with others. Granted as time goes on you'll want to strike out on your own, but a LF companion has it rewards. When people see me shooting my camera it always brings interesting comments. From now on I'm going to let them take a look thru the GG, and if their a shooter let them take a B&W. I always carry more than enough. If the experience pips their interest I'll help them with buying a camera.

[Jonathan Brewer]

DK....I think you and everybody else is right talking from their individual perspective, and I understand that the choice I made might not work for others and I would just add this.

I am a woodworker just like Grey, I bought the best tools I could afford, which helped to keep the fingers that I need dearly to operate my cameras.

Woodworking teaches you some of the same things as LF(all photography for that matter), discipline, patience, and using brutal honesty in working out a budget for a project. That's why I KNEW I LF was going to work for me.

When I started auditing this forum, I was open to everything, any deal, any camera, and so for quite a long time I watched, listened, and waited. Finding out about Robert White(thanks to Dave Anton), Mr Cad, and dealing w/extreme caution on e-bay, helped me save a BIG CHUNK on the LF gear I finally decided on.

Stating what I spent on LF in this post doesn't give you the sense of the time that I took to research this. Quite a bit of time was spread out between my purchase of the camera, each lens, the tripod, the head and so forth. The whole process has taken close to a couple of years I believe.

Quite a bit of time was taken inquiring, negotiating, e-mailing, talking to folks about several cameras. I was close to getting an 810M from a dealer you all know for $1295, and that camera was sold before I could close the deal. I had several promising deals fall through. I'm the last guy in the world to 'blow a wad' on a 'name brand' to 'show off' w/either the cars I drive, my woodworking tools, or the camera I was finally lucky to get.

Bottom line is that I happy with what I've got for the amount of money I paid for it, and the two year process it took is over. There's no bad taste in my mouth. This cost more than what I thought it would at the beginning, but there is not one single regret, since this is for a lifetime and it's over.

[David Willis]

My LF setup cost a little bit more than the $900 goal, but it was put together in a manner that worked well for me. I think my #1 purchase is something LF beginners should seriously consider.

1. LF class at community college $142

The class included access to B&W and color darkrooms, free chemistry, and use of 4x5 monorails (Linhof, Sinar, Calumet) and field cameras (Tachihara). This was one of the better investments I made. I learned how to load and develop sheet film, how to use the movements on both monorails and field cameras, and quite a few other things. If I decided LF wasn't for me, I would have learned that up front. However, after taking the class, I decided LF really fit my personality and that I would be better off with a field camera than a monorail. I looked at Speed Graphics, but had a good opportunity to get a Shen Hao direct from Shanghai.

2. Shen Hao 4x5 from Shanghai (brought over by a colleague) $525 3. Calumet Caltar II-S 150/5.6 on eBay $200 4. Minolta Autometer IVf from KEH $150 5. Six used film holders from local shop $ 50 6. Used Tiltall tripod (had already) $ 50 7. Cable release $ 5 8. Homemade darkcloth $ 2

Total with class: $1124. Total without class: $982

If I absolutely had to get under the $900 mark, I could have used my 35mm to meter, bought a less expensive meter, and/or bought a less expensive lens, such as a 203/7.7 Ektar.

Dave

[kthompson]

Hey, I understand...I use Leica rangefinders, and I used to have a pretty nice little Hasselblad setup.....look, I know it all adds up, I have what amounts to a nice little setup of studio gear myself, and pretty decent darkroom of my own....where I work, we have probably about $50K worth of equipment, and we're _nothing_ compared to a commercial studio...this is a non-profit agency. I appreciate fine tools, well machined cameras & lenses just as much as you do too probably....I looked at Linhofs, a Horseman, and a couple of Sinars, all I could afford....but went with the Cambo because it too, is a fine camera, and can do everything I need....and the accesories won't put me in the poor house when I need them....before that, I was using a Graphic View II and a couple of Schneider lenses....and doing freelance work of my own...my clients didn't know the shots were done on this old equipment, they just knew the chromes looked how they wanted to....what drove me crazy was that I was "spoiled" at work using our Japanese cameras.....

Believe me, the temptation was strong to buy a nice, exquisite camera that was a work of art unto itself.....but I've done that before with the Hasselblads and found myself making money with the Graphics and the beat up Nikons. Someone could spend a couple of hundred bucks on a camera, get a polaroid back, a few cases of film, about 350 film holders, a case or two Fujichrome, and maybe a used Wing Lynch and run their own E6 for the price of some of those cameras.....

In the end it really _doesn't_ matter what you use, as long as it works for you.

Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy of my agency

[kthompson]

Oh yeah, seeing Dave's post up there reminds...my introduction to LF came in the way of messing around with press cameras in high school, getting crap jobs as an assistant (loading holders for hours on end), and then going to a 2 yr. technical school in photography and using old Calumet cameras and then Sinar Alpinas....then hurled out into the world of commercial studios only to find myself once again, loading holders all day long and sweeping studio floors....

His advice is the best, try to find a decent community college course.... Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy of my agency

[Tony Karnezis]

Great post, Kevin. I'm a person who appreciates finely engineered cameras, watches, and motorcycles but can afford none of them. I'm a student on a budget and have to make do with what I can afford. When I sold my medium format system to get into LF, I debated whether to buy one of several high-end cameras that were beautifully made but opted to go the budget route. After much thought over a Tachihara for field use, I decided to go the route that it seems very few people go: build a Bender 4x5.

The camera is no Linhof, but it has reminded me that photography is more about my vision than my equipment. As much as I wish the camera was as silky smooth as a Linhof (can you tell I like Linhofs?), I enjoy the experience of using a camera that people consider a piece of garbage compared to most LF cameras. If I were to make my income from photography or did digital macro work, the Bender would not have been my first choice, but I realistically cannot see myself actually NEEDING another camera. It does everything I need it to do in the field or in my apartment.

I already had a Sekonic light meter and tripod, so figure a bit more money if you don't have either one, but this is how much it cost me:

Bender kit: $280 misc. parts: $20 Caltar II-N 150/5.6: $250 bag bellows: $30 dark cloth: $30 long monorail for macro work: $30 Fuji Quickload holder: $100 TOTAL: $740

Not bad. I can't tell the difference between the images I've made with this camera and a Calumet NX that I recently acquired (a great camera for studio work or field work if you have a car).

Again, great post, Kevin.