Much Bad Luck with Pyrocat HD - May Need Another Developer

[Andre Noble]

This morning I sleeved about 50 sheets of 4x5 shots from a trip to Saskatoon Canada and New England. Almost half ruined by this developer (and from two different lot numbers from PF). I am not happy.

And as Sandy noted, this developer has caused me problems since I switched over to it from Wimberly in 2004.

I honestly find it hard to believe that I'm the only one to have serious problems with Pyrocat. But I do believe those above who say they never had problems.

Can you imagine pulling 10 4x5 sheets out of a Jobo drum that are utterly ruined?

The beautiful highlights do not make up for the uneaccepptably high failure rate. This is a product that a corporation would never release out to the market for fear of damaging it's name.

[sanking]

The beautiful highlights do not make up for the uneaccepptably high failure rate. This is a product that a corporation would never release out to the market for fear of damaging it's name.

Pyrocat-HD is supplied in both water and glycol kits, consisting of a Stock Solution A and a Stock Solution B. Both kits have good shelf life, the water kit up to a year in partially full bottles, the glycol kit for several years. There is a good history of use of the product as Pyrocat-HD has been available as a pre-mixed kit for more than a decade, and is now available from multiple sources.

For use, a working solution is mixed using a small amount of Solution A and a small amount of Solution B, adding both to a larger quantity of water. Solution A is added first, stirred, and then Solution B is added. Typical dilutions are 1 Part A + 1 Part B + 100 Parts water, or 2 Parts A + 2 Parts B + 100 parts water. Most people find the mixing step to be fairly uncomplicated and are not unduly challenged by the task. But really, that is all there is to the successful mixing of a Pyrocat-HD working solution. The solution should be used to develop film right away, certainly within an hour or two, as it begins to oxidize right after mixing, and will eventually turn dark brown. The solution is safe to use so long as it is clear or light amber in color. The developer is used one-shot and the used solution is discarded.

I would estimate that the number of users of Pyrocat-HD (and Pyrocat-MC) is currently in the thousands, and includes people all over the world. I have personally answered private messages from many countries in Europe, Australia, South America, Japan and China.

There is no question but that the use of a two part developer is more complicated than a single solution developer like D76. One must make sure the two stock solutions are never contaminated with each other, and that the correct amounts of Solution A and Solution B are added to the proper amount of water to form the working solution.

I regret that you have not been able to successfully use Pyrocat-HD in your own work, for whatever reason. However, given the fact that hundreds, if not thousands, of other people are using it with success I am fairly certain at this point that the problem lies in your methodology and procedures, not in the developer.

That said, if you promise to never use Pyrocat-HD again I will personally pay the Formulary to send you a kit of any other pyro staining developer you would like.

Sandy King

[Michael Kadillak]

Heck of an offer.

Simply put deductive reasoning points out that there is something fundamentally flawed in your procedures that is the causation of your angst.

We want you to continue to consume sheet film and enjoy analog photography so please just go with a one shot developer and get back to a 100% success rate and move on down the road.

[IanG]

I guess I switched to Pyrocat HD around the same time, and it's now my only developer for all formats.

My initial thoughts are that your dev time seems rather short. I process FP4/HP5. Delta 100 & 400, Tmax100/400 and Acros & EFKE Pl 25 all for 15 minutes (Normal development) @ 20°C (68°F) at 1+1+100 in a Jobo inversion tank. Even allowing for a slight difference in temperature & type of processor somethings not right. 6 minutes seems way to short.

I wonder how accurately your measure for the concentrates of Part A & B is, because with that short dev time any variation is going to be exacerbated.

Pyrocat HD is such a good consistent developer it's hard to go wrong, and your the only person I've ever heard of having problems with it.

My gut feeling is there's something very wrong with your technique, I've never heard of anyone using FP4 at 32 EI for normal use and Pyrocat gives better film speed than many other developers.

Ian

[Andre Noble]

Ian, I am going to re-examine all my previously assumed/tested ASA's.

Sandy: In terms of final results - convenience and reliability considerations aside - in your opinion which developer produces negatives which result in the best tonal separation in the highlights during conventional enlargement with VC paper and are easier to print - those developed in Pyrocat HD or Wimberely WD2D+?

See, I believe everything happens for a reason. Are the pyro Gods blessing me by steering me towards the superior developer?

OK, Sandy, I will take you up on your offer. Please send me some WD2D+, any kit - liquid or solid version will do. In return, I hereby promise not to use Pyrocat HD ever again. In fact, I have dumped all remaining stock down the drain as of last night.

My shipping address is:

Andre Noble
9461 Charleville Blvd. #115
Beverly Hills, CA 90212 (No, I am not rich - yet)

Thanks in advance for your generous gesture.

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Like Andre I had failures with Pyrocat HD. I had failures with FP4+ in in a Jobo 3010. At first everything was fine for a few runs then all of a sudden I got very thin negs. I normally expose 2 sheets for each image so I developed one run with Pyrocat HD and the other with Rodinal. The Rodinal images were fine and the Pyrocat HD were thin, almost clear.

I sent the product back to PF and they said that perhaps one of the solutions had gone bad so they sent me new product. I used it with the same results so went back to my old way. Of the negs that turned out, they were great. I figured it was my bad luck and perhaps my processing technique didn't agree with the developer.

Based on the results from many people I would say that it was my bad luck and not the product. Maybe Andre and I just got some old stock or a bad batch from PF. My issue was over a year ago so I doubt they were from the same batch.

[Don Hutton]

I'm one of the 000s of happy users. The only time I ever had an issue (I pulled out very thin negs), I went back and found that the partially filled bottle I had mixed up of Part A solution - mixed in distilled water - was 3 years old! It's fantastic stuff - but like most good things, it's not idiot proof.... I've seen people pouring cola into Glenmorangie.

[sanking]

Like Andre I had failures with Pyrocat HD. I had failures with FP4+ in in a Jobo 3010. At first everything was fine for a few runs then all of a sudden I got very thin negs. I normally expose 2 sheets for each image so I developed one run with Pyrocat HD and the other with Rodinal. The Rodinal images were fine and the Pyrocat HD were thin, almost clear.

I sent the product back to PF and they said that perhaps one of the solutions had gone bad so they sent me new product. I used it with the same results so went back to my old way. Of the negs that turned out, they were great. I figured it was my bad luck and perhaps my processing technique didn't agree with the developer.

Based on the results from many people I would say that it was my bad luck and not the product. Maybe Andre and I just got some old stock or a bad batch from PF. My issue was over a year ago so I doubt they were from the same batch.

I would suggest that the most likely reason for the problem was not that one of the solutions was bad but that the developer was contaminated with residue left in the Jobo. Pyrocat-HD is a very dilute developer and would be easily weakened by small amounts of stop bath or fixer that were not cleaned out of the Jobo after use. The same would be true if you accidentally mixed a working Pyrocat-HD solution in a container that previously contained fixer or stop bath without thoroughly washing the container. The working solution of Pyrocat-HD depends on a PH of about 11.0, and the solution itself is so dilute that even minute quantities of an acid from residue from an acid stop bath or fixer could easily weaken the developer action.

Let's face it, if one gets good results with one run, bad results with a second run, good results with a third run, the problem must be due to either improper mixing or some sort of contamination.

Sandy King

[sanking]

Sandy: In terms of final results - convenience and reliability considerations aside - in your opinion which developer produces negatives which result in the best tonal separation in the highlights during conventional enlargement with VC paper and are easier to print - those developed in Pyrocat HD or Wimberely WD2D+?

Andre,

I have an article on pyro staining questions where these questions, and many other are addressed.

See http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PCat/pcat.html

Sandy King

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Good point Sandy, that may be the same thing going on with Andre.

I might try it again and just scrub the heck out of the drum between runs.

Thanks