George Eastman Spinning In His Grave

[Marko]

Bob, I suggest you revaluate your choice in hard drives! I have seen one drive crash in my life, and I work with lots of computers every day (I am a programmer). And the crash was not a problem because it was part of a mirrored set. And even still, it was backed up daily to another desktop drive.

A simple backup system is cheap and priceless.

Absolutely. I've been working with computers since the mid-80's and I have seen only a few hard drives go bad. The vast majority got obsoleted and rotated out of use before they failed.

The key to data security is redundancy, there's just no equivalent of a shoebox. We should leave the Flintstones where they belong - to the comic books.

[Merg Ross]

Merg, your negatives must be b&w, because I tried to scan some of my early color negatives from the '70s and lots of them were so faded that it simply wasn't worth the effort.

My digital images are all in color and should remain identical bit-for-bit for as long as I keep rotating them from the old to the new media and file formats. All three archival copies of them. Should one or even two copies get flooded, burned or physically destroyed in any other manner, there will still be another copy left from which the destroyed ones can be entirely replicated.

The beauty of it is that I can store one copy in the US, the other one in Brazil and the third one in, say China. Or any other place on Earth. I can both store and restore from those places without leaving my chair. All it takes is a little forethought and a periodical effort to maintain the copies.

In a word, it is a different medium with different methods and different set of strengths (and weaknesses).

Marko, yes my negatives are b&w, as you may have assumed from visiting my web site.

I am in complete agreement with your summation, perhaps you should have used bold type!!!

My concern has always been the process for retrieval and duplication of digital images in, say, fifty years. On this we can hopefully agree; nobody knows for certain what that process will entail.

[Marko]

Marko, yes my negatives are b&w, as you may have assumed from visiting my web site.

I am in complete agreement with your summation, perhaps you should have used bold type!!!

My concern has always been the process for retrieval and duplication of digital images in, say, fifty years. On this we can hopefully agree; nobody knows for certain what that process will entail.

Merg, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic or flippant in any way, I'm sorry if I came across like that! Please write it off on poor wording on my part, but my point still stands - there's more to film than just b&w and there is more to digital backups than a single copy on a CD/DVD.

These are two very different media with very different storage requirements and procedures. Approaching both from a single perspective gives an incomplete picture (no pun intended) of their respective merits, strengths and weaknesses.

A simplified point in case: simplicity and reliability of a shoebox vs. the complexity and involvement of maintaining computer backups. Many people do indeed keep their negatives that way and lots of them do come back into the daylight looking decent, but some - like my color ones - do not. When that gets burned or flooded, they are all gone, no coming back. They catch dust, scratches and stains. They get lost or accidentally tossed away. They keep no annotations with them, those have to be kept separately and be properly referenced, which raises a separate storage issue for the notes themselves.

Compared to the simplicity of the shoebox, digital file storage and security may indeed seem overly complex and unsafe, but only to recreational computer users. Those who use computers for more than games and other casual purposes should familiarize themselves with the basic principles of long-term data storage and retrieval. It is definitely not rocket science, but it does take some careful planning and a little periodic effort for rotation and keeping storage devices and data formats up to date. There are several basic strategies for this, none of them more complicated than following service schedule for modern cars. And like with modern cars, digital files have a potential for lasting much longer and can be more reliable than older ones if cared for properly.

Increased complexity is simply the price for increased versatility and reliability. Whether one likes it or needs it is a different, completely individual matter.

Marko

[Andy Eads]

I think what sent George Eastman spinning in his grave were the gross mis-steps Kodak made relative to digital. Kodak was positioned, given their expertise in dye technology and coating technology to own the inkjet printer market. Instead, HP, Epson and others seized the opportunity. Kodak in the 80's and early 90's was an innovator in many technologies but squandered their position with half hearted marketing and product development. Their purchase of Encad was just one mark of getting in after the real opportunities had already passed. Eastman built his empire by solid research and dynamic marketing. That Kodak is alive at all is due to the efforts of Perez and company. But Kodak will never again be based heavily on silver image products.

[Merg Ross]

[QUOTE=Marko;445874]Merg, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic or flippant in any way, I'm sorry if I came across like that! Please write it off on poor wording on my part, but my point still stands - there's more to film than just b&w and there is more to digital backups than a single copy on a CD/DVD.

Marko, I missed any sarcasm, no apology needed!

My old color has not held up well, either. You make a good point.

[David Luttmann]

Hi guys- nice to have found this forum...

here is my perspective-


I for one, am glad that Wal-mart does not carry the ART SUPPLIES i need for my FINE ART hobby.

I am glad that the art supplies I use have no relationship to cell phone features and the average consumer slob, or worse yet "pro-digi-photographer" (gag).

The future business model for Bergger, Ilford, etc is to be carried in Pearl art stores, maybe Michael's, etc. etc...

The Windson-Newton oil paint co. turns a profit every year.

Hopefully some of the coating machines and formulas at Kodak are sold to smaller companies like this, instead of being destroyed... but like it or no, Kodak is getting out of film (and I agree that this is the beginning of the end, their digi products are nothing special).

I am glad for the d****al imaging revolution for consumers. I believe it serves to clearly define and seperate what I do from the average a****le and gives my work the same handmade value as other art forms.

It's a shame they took the word "photography", but let them have it-

how about simply "silver-gelatine based artwork"

Jorge....is that you?

[Sevo]

Hopefully some of the coating machines and formulas at Kodak are sold to smaller companies like this, instead of being destroyed...

Destroyed they won't be. But they'll more likely end up in China or in a chromatography film factory than at a "independent" photo film producer - those among them which actually have their own production lines are in one way or other successors to former Kodak competitors. They are more likely to order new, downscaled machinery rather than pick up any of Kodaks which is designed for even bigger runs than the oversized machinery they already have...

Sevo

[rguinter]

Well great news. I'm happy to hear that others have had much better luck with hard drives. Me absolutely not. I have learned to expect... and get... one to two crashes per year. That has been consistent over 20-years now. Most of my drives have been Seagates although who knows for sure what's inside when one buys a new PC. I have an HP Pavilion on the floor now as I type which is 6-months old and already on its second drive. Go figure. The luck of the draw I would say. I am archiving my panoramic scans on DVD with a memorex DVD writer. About the old color slides fading?... must have been Ektachrome. Kodachrome (Boo Hoo) is no longer available... has a life expectancy measured in centuries if properly kept. Fujichrome not quite as long but still very long. So those of you with precious digital photos beware. The day may yet come when your best work vaporizes......... Bob PS. I have a Mac Mini over 4-years old with almost 40gig of iTunes files... still running its original drive. I'm not gonna complain about that one.......

[rguinter]

Absolutely. I've been working with computers since the mid-80's and I have seen only a few hard drives go bad. The vast majority got obsoleted and rotated out of use before they failed.

The key to data security is redundancy, there's just no equivalent of a shoebox. We should leave the Flintstones where they belong - to the comic books.

Marko: I'm happy for you. You must be very lucky. Or I must be very unlucky. Whichever. But as I said I had 1-hard drive, 1-flash drive, and 1-WD 500gig external drive crash all within 3-days. And yes indeed I did lose data. Bob

[Marko]

Well great news. I'm happy to hear that others have had much better luck with hard drives. Me absolutely not. I have learned to expect... and get... one to two crashes per year. That has been consistent over 20-years now. Most of my drives have been Seagates although who knows for sure what's inside when one buys a new PC. I have an HP Pavilion on the floor now as I type which is 6-months old and already on its second drive. Go figure. The luck of the draw I would say.

Magnetic personality, huh?

So those of you with precious digital photos beware. The day may yet come when your best work vaporizes.........

So will we, one day. When that happens, what difference will it make if our precious photos (aren't they all precious, btw?) "vaporize" on our hard drives or get tossed out along with the old shoebox by our descendants?

I have a Mac Mini over 4-years old with almost 40gig of iTunes files... still running its original drive. I'm not gonna complain about that one.......

Well, then, there's your solution - switch to Mac!