Yet One More Reason to Hate Paypal

[neil poulsen]

. . . I didn't want to accept paypal as a payment method but am now forced to, its not my choice . . .

Is there any way to avoid using PayPal as a seller on EBay? If someone sells currently on EBay, are they forced to give EBay their bank account information?

[Frank Petronio]

Both parties are taking on a higher degree of risk with any international transaction and you should explain that in your auction terms. I flat out state that I will not be responsible for international shipping problems and that the international buyers do so at their own risk. PayPal and eBay can still ding me, but if I am talking to the buyer directly at least I have a plank to stand on in getting them to compromise and hopefully split the difference on a failed shipment -- without their going to PayPal or eBay to complain about me. This assumes good intentions by all.

Postal insurance claims, especially international ones, take a ridiculously long time and then they will "adjust" the final payment based on bullshit, arbitrary un-protestable criteria. In a practical matter, insurance is worthless for small items. Valuable stuff needs to go FedEx or nothing at all.

For under $50 (and maybe much more $) items you just have to risk it. Explain to the customer that they risk it too.

I wouldn't refund anything to a Chinese or Russian customer, period. I don't trust their shipping services and I am skeptical of random, unknown buyers.

[Frank Bagbey]

It is simple to refuse to ship internationally. In almost every case the buyer will make arrangements for a U.S. delivery to someone who evidently charges to take the item to China, or whereever the item is going.

Also, REFUSE to take Paypal. I specify a moneyorder, or check and hold the check an extra two weeks for it to clear. Spell it all out and there will not be any problems.

[Vlad Soare]

A buyer in a 'blocked' country as you suggest can still bid and still be high bidder and still send you funds via paypal so its no guarantee of protection.

No, he can't. I once inadvertently tried to bid on an item where the buyer only shipped to US. I wasn't paying attention to this detail. I couldn't bid. I got an error message when trying to bid.

Put in your auction the information that 'although eBay forces PayPal to be listed, I do NOT take PayPal. US Postal Money orders only.'

I'm not sure eBay would allow this if it were brought to their attention by an upset buyer. You may have got away with it so far because all buyers happened to respect your wish, but if someone wants to bid on your item, wants to pay via PayPal, is not in the mood to pay ten times the amount, and files a complaint against you, I have a hunch that eBay won't be happy and won't let you get away with it.

I already have full payment(of 10 times the auction amount if the idiot insistest on PayPal) and PayPal doesn't get a damn dime of the money.

I understand why you may not like PayPal, but why the venom against buyers preferring it? As a buyer living outside the US, I find PayPal the best invention since sliced bread. Other payment methods, which may come natural to you as a US resident, are so extremely difficult, annoying, expensive and risky for us foreigners, that they're not even worth taking into account. I certainly don't regard myself as an idiot for preferring PayPal.

[Michael Graves]

Since the inception of mail order, there have been two constants. The buyer must prepay before the seller ships, putting the onus on the buyer to put their faith in the seller to ship. The flip side is that, the onus of delivery is on the seller. The buyer DOES have a right to expect the seller's reponsibility to not just end at their door--but on the downwind side of opening the package. The buyer has the right (or should have) to see that he or she actually got what was paid for. If a 18th century crystal decanter was bought and paid for and a Walmart plastic funeral vase was delivered, then the seller's responsibility has not been fulfilled and the buyer has just cause to file a complaint against the seller.

If nothing at all is delivered, then the seller is still on the hook until the situation is resolved. Paypal has done a GOOD thing here as far as buyer protection is concerned. CP Goerz, as a seller, has an immaculate reputation in our community and we all know that if something goes awry it was probably not due to a misstep on his part. To somebody seeing his listing on eBay for the first time, he HAS no reputation. If non-delivery is the first experience they have with him, is it all that unnatural for the buyer to assume the worst?

Two editorial comments here...if you aren't willing to assume the risks inherent in mail order or web transactions, then don't conduct them. Buy and sell locally and live with the built-in limitations. Secondly, if you ARE going to take advantage of the miracles of modern electronic sales and the wider audience you get as a result, then be prepared to take an occasional lump and be set up to accept electronic payment. There is no fairness in the seller being able to take advantage of technology while forcing the buyer to travel about scraping up primitive payment methods such as money orders just so the seller is the only one protected. The world of Internet sales is supposed to benefit both sides.

[sultanofcognac]

I've used paypal for four or five years now and have only been slightly 'warmed' by one transaction, but mostly because it took almost five months for paypal to recoup the funds from the seller.
If people limit the countries to which they will ship I can understand - but to limit the countries to which they will sell (my father lives in Arizona and will reship to me at my house in Switzerland or the one here in France) is a bit on the dark side of 1995 - the whole world is playing these days and there are many more expats who have the money to pay and the means to have something reshipped. I have paypal and ebay accounts in four countries but still come across someone who will neither sell nor ship to either country favourable to me.

That's just part of the game. It can be dangerous at times but oddly enough, almost all of the camera gear I have (tons, believe me) has been bought off ebay and paid through paypal.

[otzi]

I agree that PayPal is handy. They even offer an account summery. That's handy for me. Certainly infinitely more convenient that dealing with a bank and cheaper too I think. As a buyer I have had occasion to be thankful for their might in dealing with a dodgy seller. I think in my favor I listed a copy of every communicative transaction both mine and the sellers. As for PayPal's security, I would like to have that explained to me. I don't consider there to be any.

As for tracking, well really that's not much more than feel good glib. All tracking it seems stops at the country of departures boundary.

Insurance, well that too as is well illustrated in this thread makes one feel good but, unlike car insurance pretty elastic in it's purpose and out come. I would like to hear of a PayPal dispute outcome where the seller had insurance, how this altered anything.

FedEx at (how much) twice the price or more of postal cost it seems endeavor to place package to the recipient. DHL also. One would need to figure the break even sell price to cover all this postage over-burden.

And no, not all overseas buyers are able to second ship an item. Having seen considerable volume of items listed US only I notice that these often sell at bargain prices.

I have to say I have been pleasantly surprised by the postal service generally. Some slow but all delivered (so far) even the dodgy packaged items. EMS seems pretty good with good attention to detail at this end anyway.

[Dan Fromm]

Dakotah, what's your eBay username?

[neil poulsen]

I do money orders both ways, whenever I can. I had a problem once, when the seller had low feedback. I won't make that mistake again.

Frankly, I think that EBay is going just a bit Gastopo when they require PayPal. It's just another way to dig more money out of their customers. And, I do not like the idea of giving EBay my bank account information for them to make their own withdrawals. That's unmitigated intrusion, under any circumstances.

EBay started out as a neat, entrepreneurial system. Now they're starting to get greedy. It's true, I can always choose not to use EBay. I've got a bunch of stuff to sell, so I may put up with their tactics for a while. But then, I'll probably back off. They need their sellers, even the occasional sellers. They should treat them with more respect.

[BradS]

...Paypal WILL protect the buyer at all costs, the seller is on their own so SELLER BEWARE...INSURE everything at the expense of the buyer.

This just seems obvious to me....except that you, the seller are protected by the insurance. You fiel the claim if the package gets lost and you, the seller, get to collect...not the buyer. Shipping insurance is your cost of doing business. Why do you (and many many other sellers) assume that it is the buyer's?

What I have learned is that I have to pop the shipping rates up once more to cover the insurance that will be added to all items from now on whether the buyer wants it or not.

No. You have to eat it....see above. Again, you want it. Insurance is your protection - not the buyer's. You need to adjust your perspective of the world.