Please help me choose the right 4x5 field camera for me...

[Ken Lee]

Thanks Ole for the correction. On further reading, I see that "schneideritis" is, at worst, a cosmetic condition. Oops !

By the way, in your "avatar" photo, you are holding a rather large camera in your hand. Do you have large hands ? Do you play the piano ?

[AutumnJazz]

Since you mentioned macro work, remember that bellows extension can be a limiting factor. To make a photo at 1:1 ratio, you need bellow draw equal to 2x the focal length of a lens - more if you want to get closer still.

So with a "normal" lens like 150mm on a 4x5 camera, you will need at least 300mm of bellows draw. If you want to use a 210 lens, you will need 420 or more - and that precludes most field cameras.

Field cameras which offer long bellows draw, include the Ebony, the Canham DLC45, and the Wisner Technical Field. Ebony and Canham cameras rarely appear on the used market. Wisners are a bit more easy to find, but not commonplace. There's a reason for all of that.

I got my used Wisner Technical Field for $ 600, which is less than the price of new field cameras made in China, and which offer less features. Wisner may now be out of business (a controversial question), but my Wisner camera is not. My used Sinar P cost the same $ 600, with case and extension rail. Since I rarely trek with the camera, and it converts to 5x7 in a moment, it gets most of the use, indoors and out.

While Schnieder lenses are as good as they get, you might want to Google the word "Schneideritis". Nuff said on that. There are other lenses of equivalent quality and coverage, but which are smaller, lighter, and more affordable. See here for some, with accompanying sample images.

What is the draw on the Varient? The closest info I can find on that is that the maximum lens as 480mm.

I have no desire to do 5x7 (it costs just as much to get 8x10 processed, no other reason really).

Also, the Canham looks nice, if not insanely expensive.

The only thing "schneideritis" affects is the retail value, which IMO is a good thing for someone on a budget. "Rodenstockitis" is worse - that's delamination of cemented groups...

BTW, I have compared a Zone VI to a Gandolfi and a Linhof Color too. Compared to those two, it's best used as kindling,

I bought my Gandolfi Variant (I, upgraded) a couple of months ago for EUR 690, including bag bellows and a few extra lens boards. After the recent flurry of exchange rate changes, I figure that $800 should cover it.

PM for full details.

Thanks, I will PM you.

You've asked a lot of question! Here are a few answers:

- "I had been shown the path of the Zone VI, and I was looking into getting the last bail-back model camera that was made before Zone VI was bought out by Calumet. I was reading about it, and comments about its excessive weight, drawn-out set-up/take-down process, and unprotected ground glass when closed turned me off of it"

Don't believe everything you read. Better yet, try the camera and make your own decision. The Zone VI is not excessively heavy. The fact is that when you put the camera in a bag along with a couple of lenses and half a dozen holders, the difference in weight between the original Zone VI and the newer lightweight Zone VI is nothing.

The setup/takedown process for the Zone VI is neither difficult nor time consuming. Regardless of which camera you choose, you will either learn how to manipulate it, or you will become frustrated and sell it.

I'm not aware of any field camera that has inherent ground glass protection. GG protectors are cheap, and if you are clever and handy you can make your own.

Finally, the last Zone VI model (the Lightweight) was introduced by Calumet and it had a bail back just like the last model that Picker made.

- "That is to say, I want a camera that I can set up and pack away quickly."

OK - two responses to that one. First, practice, practice, practice. Tillman Crane includes a "five minute picture" exercise in his LF workshops to teach students how to quickly manipulate their cameras.

Second - why? For me, the whole point of LF is to slow down to really study the image and approach the making of an image in a careful and thoughtful way. If you want fast, stick with 35mm or go digital.

- "Are there other lenses I should be considering for what I want to do?"

I suggest starting with a 210mm. Whether it's Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikon or Fuji is not especially important. I chose Caltar - 'Rodenstock in drag'. After you have worked with it for a while, you will know what your next lens should. be. And remember that you don't want to be a lens collector - LF lenses are heavy and expensive. Most people get by with one or two lenses and a pair of shoes in which to walk closer to the subject in order to change the framing.

- "I would say that overall my budget for camera, lenses, film holders, etc. is $2,000"

That's easily oable, especially with used equipment. And there's a lot of good used stuff out there.

- "I don't want something that will start to fall apart in a few years, I want a tank."

Two comments on this one. First, don't drop your camera. Seriously, with LF, that's about the worst thing that can happen, and even then most cameras are repairable. Richard Ritter even has a video on making emergency repairs in the field - that he made by wrecking a Zone VI and then patching it back together with stuff that he bought in WalMart. Including an ad-hoc ground glass that he made from a cheap plastic picture frame.

Second, the most rugged camera you can buy today is probably an old Crown Graphic. That might not be a bad starting point if you are uncertain about your level of commitment to LF.

Thanks. I don't drop my cameras, I take very good care of them. I take good care of everything I own. I'm looking to protect for the worst case scenario.

I keep being told that the weight of the Zone VI is negligible, I just wanted reassurance to be quite honest.

Also, I just don't want to spend my time setting up and tearing down my camera instead of moving on to find where I want to take my pictures.

[John Kasaian]

I keep being told that the weight of the Zone VI is negligible, I just wanted reassurance to be quite honest.

Also, I just don't want to spend my time setting up and tearing down my camera instead of moving on to find where I want to take my pictures.

FWIW I can't think of a wooden clamshell camera that is a true 4x5 (and not a 5x7 with a 4x5 back) that I'd call "heavy." Portability is one of the main reasons these why things were built!

If you're overly concerned about set up and take down (again it isn't really a problem with any well designed field camera you'll commonly come across---these things were meant to operate in the "field" meaning a 19th century field) simply set up, then pick the whole enchhilada, tripod and all up and move it where you want. You can even throw the tripod over you shoulder and hike around with it quite nicely (if there are no low branches hanging over the trail!)

[AutumnJazz]

Are there any field cameras with yaw-free movements? Just curious, really.

John, that is what I do with my SLR now, so I don't know why that didn't cross my mind...lol

[Santo Roman]

Jazz,

I picked up a toyo view 45g about a year on ebay for $150. You really don't need much to start off. I never picked up a lens because I do mostly pinhole work with it but I will soon be getting a new 4x5 field as well so it was good to see someone else with the same questions. I had a graflex crown 5 years ago but sold it on ebay. I've been looking at the Toyo and a few others. I as well shot with the F100 for a number of years so I know how you feel about having a high quality item. Trust me it will feel like a HUGE step down but the control you will have is great. Good luck.

Santo

[Frank Petronio]

The expensive Ebonies have yaw-free movements. Monorails, like the Sinar F and P, as well as some of the later Linhof and Arca models also have yaw-free movements. Sinar really promoted the idea that yaw-free movements are important to photographers. In the real world, the lack of having yaw-free movements will have zero influence on your ability to make good large format pictures. It is almost never a deal-breaker -- simply a nice convenience for a small number of situations and bragging rights.

If you want a nice wooden folding camera get a new Chamonix from China -- search them out on this forum. Under $1000.

If you want a solid metal folding camera get a used Wista or a Linhof Technika. From $800 up.

If you want a bargain that has full movements, get a used monorail from a good manufacturer like Sinar, Linhof, Arca-Swiss, Toyo, etc. $500 will buy you a great camera.

(An older Arca monorail will actually be lighter and more compact that most folding cameras.)

If you only want to spend $300 to see if you like large format, watch for a clean Crown Graphic with lens.

(Google and search out the individual models for detailed info.)

[Ron Marshall]

What Frank said. I have a yaw-free and a non yaw-free camera. I mostly use the non yaw-free.

The best thing to do is get a camera and start shooting. Whatever you end up buying, you will probably find another camera you wish you had bought. You're lucky, there are so many great cameras being made currently, and many others available used at very reasonable prices.

[AutumnJazz]

I've actually tried to find info on the Chamonix in the past, but was unable to. Then again, I didn't look on this forum. How is it different from the Gandolfi Varient? From what I read before a Chinese man who loved to hike in Chamonix wanted a lighter LF camera.

Also, what are the benefits of having a camera like the Canham DLC45 over something like the Gandolfi Varient (durability?)? Cons of such a camera (movements, weight?)?

I'm afraid to even look into monorails because I like to hike and walk around a lot, especially when I'm in the mood to take some pictures. I don't want something that will be awkward and heavy, which might hurt my back or just be an annoyance so I'll end up never using it outside.

Again, I want to thank you all for your advice. Many of you are telling me about what I am sure are great cameras, but you aren't really telling me why they are great cameras or why I should really look into them. Someone else, from APUG actually, got me really wanting a Zone VI, but then Ole introduced me to the Gandolfi above and has really made me want it. I'm sorry if I sound ungrateful, I really am not, but it is hard to find information on LF cameras aside from here and APUG, and I'm just overwhelmed with suggestions of great cameras that I'm sure I would have a blast using, but not much info besides the name of it, what type it is, what it is made out of, etc.

Again I want to thank everyone, please don't think that I don't appreciate everyone's advice. (Personally, I love hearing many different and conflicting solutions...it usually helps eliminate bias vs. just going off of one person's suggestion.)

Right now, I am really leaning to getting a Gandolfi Varient.

[Daniel_Buck]

I have seen Tachihara 4x5s and Wista 4x5s sell used for $450 or so, I think that would be a great way to get into 4x5 shooting, and to continue using as well! Just because some people may label a particular camera as a 'beginner's' camera, or a 'starter' camera, doesn't mean that you can't continue to use it for years and years.

A family member loaned me a Wista Zone VI when I was starting off in the world of large format, and I enjoyed the camera very much! If I were starting out from scratch again, I would not hesitate to pick one of them up. It had a decent amount of movements, was very easy to use, and I liked the fact that I could close it up with the lens still inside the front standard (though I had to reverse the lensboard when closing it). And on top of that, it's a very classic looking (and feeling) camera. May not have as much movements or as much bellows expansion as some other cameras, but in practice that was usually not a problem at all for most types of shooting.

I think you'll do fine with most any of the cameras suggested, they all do about the same thing :-) I think for the most part, any camera will get you 90% of the way there (save maybe for architecture shooting or some other type of shooting that requires big movements and wide lenses), the rest is up to personal preference of features and style. I've tried a few 4x5 cameras, and can't honestly say that I have found one (save for an old heavy monorail camera!) that I did not enjoy shooting with. I did eventually settle on a Chamonix 4x5, but not because I disliked the other 4x5s, but because the Chamonix had the right combination of movements (and price) with the features that I liked, and not many of the features that i didn't need (rear shift or rise, for instance).

[AutumnJazz]

Thank you. I know the Tachihara was also the Zone VI brand camera at one point early in its life. I know I would enjoy using one.

If in the end I can't convince myself to spring for the Gandolfi, I'll probably end up getting the last Zone VI that was made before the Ultralight, which isn't much more than the $450 you cited.

On the note of movements, what applications do rear shift/rise have?

I seriously cannot thank you all enough. This site, like APUG, is filled with such an extreme wealth of information, it is just amazing.

(Why hasn't anyone made an analog or large format wiki yet? It seems like a wiki is the perfect way to display everyone's knowledge on cameras, emulsions, techniques, chemical formulas, scanners, etc.)