Thorny problem I can’t solve.

[Mark Sloane]

I went to the lab last night to make some prints, (sometimes it’s open on a Wed. night).

The T-MAX developer is not RS and specifically says for “Roll film only”!

I also found that the master catalog I was using for my development time for T-MAX recommends only 6 minutes and Kodak recommends 8 min for large tank for roll and 8.5 min for sheet film in a large tank w/T-MAX RS.

After printing test strips the lab tech and I both agreed that the lighter negs, the plus 3 stop exposure, were the best and I printed those.

If you attribute a stop to film speed (T-MAX 100 may be slower the 100)/some bellows factor/missing a 1/3 stop in my calc, etc……could using the wrong developer for 2 minutes shorter than recommended be the remaining two stop difference?

The lab tech suggested that once I had the right combination for a good neg, stay with it, remain consistent and then start to change up the process in small steps in order to achieve better results.

Even though that makes a ton of sense I am concerned about using the wrong developer (not RS), the wrong time (6 min instead of 8), and forcing myself to shoot 3 to 4 stops slower.

I’m off to the woods at the beginning of October for two weeks of fly fishing and photography so I will not have the opportunity to make significant changes to my current process till I get back, buy my own developer and make some tests.

[Jay W]

I have two thoughts.

1. Seems obvious, but maybe F32 is not F32. I'd take a close look at how you're setting the lens opening and take a look through the lens to see if the number seems to match the opening. I have a 210 that has an arrow to the F-stop, and I could see confusing the setting with another part of the aperture setting. There could be a mechanical problem with the lens opening also (you might have F128 when you set F32).

2. I'n sure Kodak has recommendations for tray developing (I prefer tray developing), and that would take a lot of variation out of the processing agitation and the amt of chemistry used. Try a sheet tray processing with light continous agitation and something simple like D-76 straight.

I usually shoot at ASA (I'm showing my age) 80 and meter the scene similar to you. I used to shoot at 50, but my negs tended to be a bit heavy. I can't imagine 8s at F32 without producing black negs.

Jay

[Oren Grad]

The specific problem with T-Max developer is that some users find that it causes dichroic fog with sheet film. Other users get away with it, though.

But you can't tell what the proper time would be for T-Max developer by looking at the recommendation for T-Max RS - they're different products. You can work out optimal times for T-Max developer by running your own bracketed development tests, but it may not be worth the trouble given the fog risk.

Apart from the dichroic fog problem with T-Max developer, almost every other commonly-available developer should give decent results with T-Max films. I prefer D-76 myself, but there are also many satisfied users of Xtol, T-Max RS, HC-110B, etc. Just pick one, start again with the recommended time for that developer, and see where that gets you.

Do bear in mind that T-Max films are relatively sensitive to changes in development time compared to traditional films. So, for example, a 25% shortfall from the optimal time with a given developer could indeed be a problem. I don't know whether that would be enough to explain your results. But you certainly should start again with the recommended time/temp for some other developer, see what you get, and we can go from there.

[Brian Ellis]

I haven't read the responses or anything other than your original message, which I didn't fully understand. So if this duplicates what's already been said, or is unresponsive to what you're really asking, my apologies.

You can't expect to get good results by simply saying "I opened up 4 stops from the meter reading and got my first good negative, therefore from now on I'll just open up 4 stops and I'll get a good negative." It all depends on what part of the scene you're metering and on the contrast range of the scene. Obviously a spot meter only meters a tiny part of a scene. So you'll get very different results depending on whether you start by metering the brightest area, the darkest area, or something in between.

To get technically "good" negatives with a spot meter just meter the darkest area of the scene in which you want to see some texture or detail (i.e. an area that you want to appear very dark in the print but not solid black), then open up one or two stops from there. That may occasionally give you blown out highlights depending on the contrast range of the scene and at that point you can start learning how to adjust your development times (or how to tell the lab to adjust your development times, though you really should do your own developing) to reduce the highlight density when necessary. But for now just worry about the exposure side of the equation.

Since you have a properly functioning spot meter I don't see any reason to confuse things by also using digital cameras or the sunny 16 rule.

[rachase]

I agree with Brian in that you shouldn't have to be content with calculating an exposure time and then have to add 3 or 4 stops to the value. The 'discrepancy' in stops might not be constant for all types of images. I would use a little experimentation or 'fault analysis' to get to the bottom of it. First, keep it simple - don't use a filter or shoot close-up. Use a grey card. Make sure that the subject isn't too contrasty, that is it doesn't span too many EI values as measured with your spot meter. Keep the calculations simple. If you are still off 3 or 4 stops, try different films and/or developers. Try using a film holder instead of using Readyloads. Be sure to use both of your lenses. Keep accurate records as you go. Perhaps your problem is a sum of minor inaccuracies. Good luck!

[Mark Sloane]

I agree with Brian in that you shouldn't have to be content with calculating an exposure time and then have to add 3 or 4 stops to the value. The 'discrepancy' in stops might not be constant for all types of images. I would use a little experimentation or 'fault analysis' to get to the bottom of it. First, keep it simple - don't use a filter or shoot close-up. Use a grey card. Make sure that the subject isn't too contrasty, that is it doesn't span too many EI values as measured with your spot meter. Keep the calculations simple. If you are still off 3 or 4 stops, try different films and/or developers. Try using a film holder instead of using Readyloads. Be sure to use both of your lenses. Keep accurate records as you go. Perhaps your problem is a sum of minor inaccuracies. Good luck!

Thanks guys…I appreciate the feedback.

When I meter for a shot I write down the lowest ev for shadow detail and the highest ev within the composition. I then try to determine what portion of the composition I want for middle grey and then meter it and write it down. I am very cognizant of keeping my composition with in 6 ev values from the lowest to highest. I often use grad nd filters to stay with in 6 ev.

At first using these calculations I would get completely transparent negs. We could tell they were properly developed by the text written on the edge of the neg, “Kodak T-MAX 100”.

I then began adding two stops and started to get some density. I had my lenses and meter checked by a shop in SF and everything checked out.

I am now adding 3 stops and a fourth stop for a bracket and am getting the proper density.

I have tested my meter against 3 others and both lenses appear to be in good working order as verified by the tech in SF and the fact that they both need the same exposure compensation.

Bellows extension is not an issue because I shoot mainly landscape at infinity.

My next course of action is to start using T-MAX RS for a developer, going to 7 minutes development time instead of 6 and meeting with a member of this forum, hopefully next week, to go through a couple of setups.

I thinking that is just may be a accumulation of small issues: Film speed is probably a slower than 100 (I’m too lazy to test it), poor developing technique on my part, poor metering skill like not adding up all the 1/3 and 2/3 stops for filters, sometimes rounding up or down ev values in my head and so on.

My guess is that my auto everything F5 and D200 have made me a lazy and sometimes sloppy photographer and I need to up my game.

I’ll give you an update in November: I’m taking off to the woods for two weeks in Oct and Mexico for a week early in November. I won’t get a chance to test everything till the end of November.

Thanks again for all the advice……Mark

[john borrelli]

I may have missed this but have all your negatives been developed by you at that workshop lab? If so my guess is that the processing part is the problem, not your camera equipment or metering technique.

I mean to be off 4 stops or more with B&W film, even though TGrain films can be tricky, is not easy to do consistently even with equipment that has the average amount of problems.

I would do everything the same then I would take the film to the best lab you can find.

[Henry Ambrose]

Thanks guys…I appreciate the feedback.
well snipped....
I thinking that is just may be a accumulation of small issues: Film speed is probably a slower than 100 (I’m too lazy to test it), poor developing technique on my part, poor metering skill like not adding up all the 1/3 and 2/3 stops for filters, sometimes rounding up or down ev values in my head and so on.
snipped more....
……Mark

"Film speed is probably a slower than 100 (I’m too lazy to test it)"

Now go out and shoot a three sheet test.

Find an evenly lit scene with varied and full range tones - maybe your house or another nearby building. Full sunlight might be nice so you can check your metering against sunny 16. Set your meter film speed to 64. (this is your new personal film speed for Tmax) Meter the scene. If your scene is in full sun you ought to be at f16 and 1/60th. If so and you get a different number you are metering wrong. Set the speed and aperture as directed by the meter. Expose film. Write down exactly what you did. Process one sheet according to published times and technique, second at 10% shorter and the third at 10% longer. Inspect result. You will likely be very, very close with one of the sheets.

Other things for later:

Stop with the EV and conversions. Use stops like a real photographer. Get a meter that lets you do this. While you're at it get a meter that does both reflective and incident. You'll be glad you did this.

Red filters on Tmax don't use "normal" filter factors - Google this. Orange will likely do what you want and cost you less light. And medium yellow will do a lot more than you'd think.

[Mark Sloane]

"Film speed is probably a slower than 100 (I’m too lazy to test it)"

Now go out and shoot a three sheet test.

Find an evenly lit scene with varied and full range tones - maybe your house or another nearby building. Full sunlight might be nice so you can check your metering against sunny 16. Set your meter film speed to 64. (this is your new personal film speed for Tmax) Meter the scene. If your scene is in full sun you ought to be at f16 and 1/60th. If so and you get a different number you are metering wrong. Set the speed and aperture as directed by the meter. Expose film. Write down exactly what you did. Process one sheet according to published times and technique, second at 10% shorter and the third at 10% longer. Inspect result. You will likely be very, very close with one of the sheets.

Other things for later:

Stop with the EV and conversions. Use stops like a real photographer. Get a meter that lets you do this. While you're at it get a meter that does both reflective and incident. You'll be glad you did this.

Red filters on Tmax don't use "normal" filter factors - Google this. Orange will likely do what you want and cost you less light. And medium yellow will do a lot more than you'd think.

Henry,

I just got back from the lab this evening. I mixed up a batch of XTOL and processed 4 sheets of film as per the Kodak document J-108 dated March 2008.

I composed a shot at noon today and it metered 1/60 at f16 at ISO 100. I then exposed 3 more sheets at f16 with times of 1/30, 1/15 and 1/8.

The neg at 1/30 turned out to be the best neg which is perfect! If I had metered the composition using ISO 64 I’m sure the first neg would have been spot on.

So poor developing skills was the gremlin. I still have few more gremlins in my Jobo Tube but that’s another thread!

“Red filters on Tmax don't use "normal" filter factors - Google this. Orange will likely do what you want and cost you less light. And medium yellow will do a lot more than you'd think.”

I think you forgot to tell me what to “google”. I did google Red filters on Tmax and got an interesting article by David Kachel.

Anyway.....thanks for the advice.....Mark

[Daniel_Buck]

So poor developing skills was the gremlin.

Wow, so the problem was developing, this whole time? Glad you tracked it down! Might I ask what you did different this time? Or rather, what specifically was the problem in your developing?