Strange Negs with Pyrocat MC

[steve simmons]

Eric

really, before you do anythng else proof the first set

They might be awful but then again.....

Looking at a stained negative the first time can create some concern because they are different. What really matters is the print.

steve simmons

[sanking]

I give mine a little wash in the drum but remove to a film washer. It's such a dilute developer that I think it could be sensitive to contamination...EC

Evan is correct. The Pyrocat working solution is especially sensitive to any contamination that lowers the pH. The energy of the working solution will be significantly lowered if contamined with any solution that is acidic. Even small amounts of acidic solution added to the working solution could drop the pH of the working solutoin to 9.0 or less. That would slow down the developing action by a lot.

Given the information I have learned so far in this thread this would be my first suspect.

Sandy King

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Thanks again everyone.

Steve - The first batch were so thin that they are almost clear, I mean REALLY thin. The duplicate set developed in Rodinal were fine.

Sandy - That may be it. I have cleaned the drum very well and will try again, but only with some test negs. The remaining negs from this trip will go though Rodinal.

This was the first time I had any failures and the developer is great (usually). I don't want to stop using it, just need to figure out the problem and fix it.

Thanks again.

[scott_6029]

It may very well be contamination. This happened to me and they were VERY thin. If you pour A into a beaker then into the larger mixing beaker, then B into the smaller beaker, but overfill and pour remaining into B (with some leftover of A, if you didn't rinse the smaller beaker....)...then you will have problems? I think this is what I did to contaminate the solutions. At any rate they were extremely thin. Since then I have never had a problem like this as I am very careful about contamination.

[sanking]

Thanks again everyone.

Steve - The first batch were so thin that they are almost clear, I mean REALLY thin. The duplicate set developed in Rodinal were fine.

Sandy - That may be it. I have cleaned the drum very well and will try again, but only with some test negs. The remaining negs from this trip will go though Rodinal.

This was the first time I had any failures and the developer is great (usually). I don't want to stop using it, just need to figure out the problem and fix it.

Thanks again.

Eric,

The developer itself, mixed in glycol, has a shelf life of many years. Since it worked well for you recently, it should work well now unless somehow it has been contaminated. In other words, it will not go bad on its own.

One possibility is that the working solution was contaminated. I think that would be entirely feasible with Jobo.

Another possibility, and the least attractive one, is that the stock solutions themselves have been contaminated, as might happen for example if you accidentally pour Stock A into Stock B, or vice-versa. In the past the Pyrocat kits were mixed in water, and contamination resulted in very rapid break down of the stock solution. This still happens with the glycol kit, but more slowly. This situation is not unique to Pyrocat, rather it is common to all two-part pyro staining developers (PMK, Rollo Pyro, WD2D, etc.).

I definitely would not risk any more important negatives until the cause of the problem has been identified. There is definitely something very wrong if you are getting thinner negatives with Pyrocat than with Rodinal. In my own tests of these two developers Pyrocat gives at least as much film speed as Rodinal, if not slightly more.


Sandy

[evan clarke]

The two instances of thin negatives I had were when I developed more than 1 Jobo drum in a session. The second drums were dry and clean but I only gave the chute a couple rinses. My PCMC/glycol is over a year old and works wonderfully. I am rating TMY and TMY2 at 320 and seem to get a minute increase in density for the same exact exposure with the TMY2. I always expose 2 sheets of the same photograph and now 1 holder each of TMY and TMY2. I was not scuttled by the thin negs!!..EC

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Thanks again everyone.

So, today I did a test and made a couple of exposures on FP4+ in 5X7 around my backyard.

I cleaned my tank and measuring containers then used my normal routine. I did a pre-soak of 5 minutes, followed by the developer which was mixed at 1+1+100 in distilled water, then the stop, fix and hypo clear followed by a wash. Also, prior to mixing the Pyrocat I shook the bottles just to make sure all was mixed. Lastly, I only measure out enough solution A as needed and after adding that to the water, I wash the measuring cup then measure out soluiton B. I never pour anything back into the bottles.

I then processed the duplicate negative in Rodinal. I use Rodinal at 1+50 and just use normal tap water.

Here again, the Pyrocat negs looked far to thin as compared to the Rodinal. I have been using Pyrocat MC for the past few months and had nothing but success so I think I know what I am looking for. The Pyrocat I am using is the exact same as in previous months, I have not purchased any new. Also, I am using 1000 ml per run in the Jobo 3010 drum which in the past has been fine.

Also, what is strange is that when I developed the 4X5 FP4+ negs from the same trip in the Pyrocat, they came out perfect. Then once I moved up to the 5X7 film I started having failure. As I mentioned, I have been using Pyrocat MC for a few months for roll film, 4X5 and 5X7 and have not had any problems. Perhaps this is a film issue?

At this point I think I am going to toss out the remaining 1/2 full bottles of the developer and get some fresh from Photographers Formulary. I don't want to leave the impression to anyone who might read this that Pyrocat MC is not a quality developer, it is and I really like it. I just think that something has happened to one of these solutions (or perhaps it is a film issue?) and I want to get some fresh.

Thanks again to everyone. As always, it has been a great learning experience and the members of this forum have been a tremendous help.

Eric

[Jorge Gasteazoro]

Do you always do a pre wash before the developer step? I have found I don't need it with my Jobo. This might be the step that is introducing the error, before you throw the developer away why don't you try a test without the pre wash. Another item you have not mentioned is the amount of developer you are using. Are you perhaps using too little and exhausting the developer before it has a chance to fully develop your film. I use at least 500ml of developer per sheet when I am doing expansion, I can get away with 3 sheets in the drum if all I am doing is contraction.

Since your negs developed in rodinal are fine I guess you can rule out shutter or aperture error.

[Marko]

Here again, the Pyrocat negs looked far to thin as compared to the Rodinal. I have been using Pyrocat MC for the past few months and had nothing but success so I think I know what I am looking for. The Pyrocat I am using is the exact same as in previous months, I have not purchased any new. Also, I am using 1000 ml per run in the Jobo 3010 drum which in the past has been fine.

Also, what is strange is that when I developed the 4X5 FP4+ negs from the same trip in the Pyrocat, they came out perfect. Then once I moved up to the 5X7 film I started having failure. As I mentioned, I have been using Pyrocat MC for a few months for roll film, 4X5 and 5X7 and have not had any problems. Perhaps this is a film issue?

Eric, please excuse the obvious questions, but why don't you test the same developer with 4x5 again? Also, how many sheets do you develop per run in either format?

What you just described makes me think that the amount of developing agent in 1000ml of your solution may be sufficient for 4x5 but not for 5x7?

Another thing to try would be to develop fewer 5x7 sheets in the same volume.

[Jan Pedersen]

P-Cat MC has been my main developer for the last 2 years and from what i know, lack of developer is not the problem here.
1000 ml should be plenty for two sheets of 5x7 I dev 3 sheets of 8x10 in 700ml 1+1+100 in a 3005 although not FP4 but TMY, Foma and Delta 100. FP4 should not require more dev than any of those 3
It would be interesting to know if 2+2+100 with a 30-35 % reduction of time would change your negatives