Gitzo CF + Manfrotto head

[Cristiano Abreu]

@ Kerry First of all, thanks a lot for such lenghty explanation. Lot's of useful info and experience.

For now I'm using a Shen Hao TZ-45IIA (approx. 1.9 kg), as I mentioned on the post previous to yours My heaviest lens is a 90/5.6 Super-Angulon XL, which weights around 700g. I understand your choice for Arca B1, but it's really out of my price tag.
After spending a while digesting the various posts and consulting again thoroughly Gitzo and Manfrotto sites, I'm almost settled for the 808RC4 (lighter) or the 160 (advertised as the perfect choice for LF, at least 4x5'', but heavier). However, I'm a bit concerned about the lower stiffness of the 160, as reported before.
If I had to choose this instant I would go the 808RC4 way... am I doing the right thing? any cons with this 3-way pan-tilt.

The geared 410 seems nice but I find 5 kg max. load a tad short, since later on I could purchase a longer heavier lens, like a 300 mm or more. The 405 would seem a better choice, but is expensive and starts to become heavy.

[Eric Biggerstaff]

Christiano,

I think Kerry has given great advice, and like you I work on a pretty limited budget.

I am a fan of the geared Manfrotto 410 head and for your set up it would be great. I use it with a heavy Zone VI 4X5 as well as my old Conley 5X7 and it is very solid and a joy to work with.

However, as Kerry mentions, all things come with exceptions and what is great for one person might be horrible for the next. So, you almost just have to bite the bullet and try one. The good thing is, if the one you choose isn't quite right for you, chances are good that you can sell it without taking much of a loss.

In terms of legs, I mount the head to Gitzo 1227 CF legs. It is a nice set up that works well for me, but if I were shopping for legs today I would seriously consider either the Giottos brand CF or Lava legs or even the Feisol leg sets. I did a review of the Giottos products recently and found them to be excellent quality with many more features than the Gitzo products. I really liked the lava series legs model MT-7371 which is from the Giottos classic series. The CF version of the classic series are also very nice.

By the way, I have no business relationship with Giottos in anyway, I was simply impressed by their products.

I also hear many nice things about the Feisol brand tripods and there are many happy users on this forum. Kerry can give you the details on these as he recently became the US distributor for them.

Just wanted to give you my two cents worth and let you know of additional options.

Good luck and let us know what you decide on and how you like it.

[Really Big Cameras]

@ Kerry First of all, thanks a lot for such lenghty explanation. Lot's of useful info and experience.

You're welcome. More to come...

For now I'm using a Shen Hao TZ-45IIA (approx. 1.9 kg), as I mentioned on the post previous to yours My heaviest lens is a 90/5.6 Super-Angulon XL, which weights around 700g. I understand your choice for Arca B1, but it's really out of my price tag.

Here's where I'm confused. The tripod you are considering, the Gitzo 3540XLS costs $750. Yet, you consider a $329 head out of your price range. Putting a lesser quality, inexpensive head on an expensive leg set seems like false economy to me. This doesn't make sense to me. Yes, a rigid set of legs is important, and you've said you want to save weight, but have you considered spending a little less on the legs and a little more on the head to get a better price/performance match between the two? The tripod head you choose will likely have just as much impact on the overall rigidity of your support system than the the tripod legs. And, the head will probably have a MUCH bigger impact on ease of use and the overall enjoyment of using the equipment. If I was in your situation, rather than spend $750 on a tripod and $125 - $200 on a head, I'd consider spending $500 on the legs and $350 on the head. That gets you in the same total price range (less actually), but would seem to give you a better match in terms of quality between the legs and tripod head.

After spending a while digesting the various posts and consulting again thoroughly Gitzo and Manfrotto sites, I'm almost settled for the 808RC4 (lighter) or the 160 (advertised as the perfect choice for LF, at least 4x5'', but heavier). However, I'm a bit concerned about the lower stiffness of the 160, as reported before.
If I had to choose this instant I would go the 808RC4 way... am I doing the right thing? any cons with this 3-way pan-tilt.

Again, I'm confused by what you said you wanted, and what you are considering buying. In your original post you said your goal was to reduce the weight of what you carry in the field. Yet, according to the specs on the Manfrotto web site the 808RC4 weighs over 3 lbs. (1.39kg) and the 160 nearly 4.5 lbs. (2.00kg). Those are some very heavy heads, especially for someone whose goal is to reduce the weight they are carrying in the field. I have no experience using either of those heads (but I did use a Bogen 3047 for years, replaced it with the ARCA-SWISS B1 due to the intolerable weight of nearly 4.5 lbs.), but one look at the weight specs and I would instantly rule them out for MY use. Again, it seems to be counter productive to spend a fortune on a carbon fiber tripod to save weight and then put a 3 - 4 lb. head on top.

The geared 410 seems nice but I find 5 kg max. load a tad short, since later on I could purchase a longer heavier lens, like a 300 mm or more. The 405 would seem a better choice, but is expensive and starts to become heavy.

The 410, while not lightweight, actually weighs less (1.22kg = ~2.7 lb.) than the two three-axis heads you mention above. Based on personal experience, if you're max. load is a 4x5 Shen-Hao with a 300mm lens, it will be more than adequate for the task (assuming you are considering an appropriate lightweight 300mm lens, like a 300mm Nikkor M or 300mmm Fujinon C to pair with your Shen-Hao.). It would not be my first choice for weight vs. strength (an ARCA-SWISS or Markins ballhead would), but I would certainly take it over the two heavier three-axis heads you are considering.

Kerry Thalmann
Really Big Cameras
http://www.reallybigcameras.com

[Aender Brepsom]

You are right, as there seems to be no RRS dealer in Europe. However, ordering from the US is very interesting at the moment, considering the dollar/euro rate. I have received a few items from RRS last week, and although I had to pay for local customs taxes, it was still a very good deal, and their stuff is really top notch.

Thanks Aender.
I know that the Arca B1 are among the best, but a tad pricy for me. I'm also more inclined for the pan-tilt, for more precise adjustments.
Unfortunately, I can't seem to find a seller for RRS here in Europe. In the past, before buying the G1378M, I've seriously considered one of RRS's ball heads, but was unable to find a on-line seller this side of the pond. I've had a bad experience before with customs, so ordering from the States is almost out of question.

[Really Big Cameras]

I do have the Gitzo G1520 you asked about, and like my early experiences with the ARCA-SWISS B1, I have a bit of a love/hate relationship with it. It is neither as smooth, nor as rigid as I thought it would be. Perhaps I have become spoiled by the smoothness and rock solid rigidity of the ARCA-SWISS, but by comparison the G1520 leaves a lot to be desired. I bought it specifically for use with my 7x17 Franken-ARCA. I figured with the bigger, heavier camera I'd NEED a three axis head. What I found instead is that with the tension preset at maximum, it was actually easier to precisely position the camera with the B1 than the G1520. And, the B1 is definitely more rigid when locked down than the bigger, heavier G1520. I'm not saying the G1520 is a bad head, just that it's no ARCA-SWISS. Depending on the camera your using, the large platform of the G1520 might be nice (for a large flatbed field camera, for example). But, since I use only monorail based cameras (Toho FC-45X for backpacking, ARCA-SWISS for everything else from 4x5 to 7x17), the big top platform of the Gitzo doesn't provide any benefit for me. In fact, since I'm planning to move up to an even bigger, heavier camera (14x17), I bought a used ARCA-SWISS B2 to replace the G1520 as my dedicated ULF head. The B2 is really a three axis head dressed in ballhead clothing. It LOOKS like a ballhead, but works like a three-axis head. Like the B1, it's smooth and rock solid. It's also expensive and heavy and I believe it's been discontinued. Still, I consider it the ultimate head for MY ULF needs.

Oops, correction to my original post. The model of Gitzo three-axis head I have is actually the G1570, not the G1520. I can't edit my original post. So, when you read the paragraph above be sure to mentally insert G1570 every place I incorrectly wrote G1520.

Kerry Thalmann
Really Big Cameras
http://www.reallybigcameras.com

[Cristiano Abreu]

Christiano,

I think Kerry has given great advice, and like you I work on a pretty limited budget.

I am a fan of the geared Manfrotto 410 head and for your set up it would be great. I use it with a heavy Zone VI 4X5 as well as my old Conley 5X7 and it is very solid and a joy to work with.

However, as Kerry mentions, all things come with exceptions and what is great for one person might be horrible for the next. So, you almost just have to bite the bullet and try one. The good thing is, if the one you choose isn't quite right for you, chances are good that you can sell it without taking much of a loss.

In terms of legs, I mount the head to Gitzo 1227 CF legs. It is a nice set up that works well for me, but if I were shopping for legs today I would seriously consider either the Giottos brand CF or Lava legs or even the Feisol leg sets. I did a review of the Giottos products recently and found them to be excellent quality with many more features than the Gitzo products. I really liked the lava series legs model MT-7371 which is from the Giottos classic series. The CF version of the classic series are also very nice.

By the way, I have no business relationship with Giottos in anyway, I was simply impressed by their products.

I also hear many nice things about the Feisol brand tripods and there are many happy users on this forum. Kerry can give you the details on these as he recently became the US distributor for them.

Just wanted to give you my two cents worth and let you know of additional options.

Good luck and let us know what you decide on and how you like it.

Thanks for the input Eric.
I've heard good things also on the 410 geared head and many swear by it, here on LFPF. It has been in my wish list from day one, but then I become somewhat concerned when I saw on the specs that the max. load was only 5 kg. But now I feel more reassured since you use it with more heavy gear and even 5x7''. I have seriously reconsidered it, since it costs only 20 Euros more or so than the Manfrotto 160. And it weights less than the other Manfrotto solutions, just 1.22 kg, and it's even more compact (13 cm). For the work I do I don't care excessively about the precision of adjustments (like in studio work), but I would like smooth 3-axis independent positioning.
Like you said, if I don't like it I can always resell it later. I can find the 410 for around 189 Euros, new. It's not a huge sum (contrary to the Gitzo legs) and, therefore, I can order it less worried on the investment.

With respect to the legs, I've heard good things also about the brands you mentioned. But my problem is that I live in a small country in Europe, Portugal. The 2 or 3 pro shops I can find nearby (at Porto), only sells the most renowned brands, i.e Gitzo and Manfrotto and the prices are very high. So, I can't check the brands you mentioned. For the Giottos, I think I know one or two sites here in Europe that sell them. For the Feisol or lava, if not mistaken, just in the States. It's not worth it, the Portuguese customs are very picky.
I'm going for Gitzo because I already have one (G2220) and like it very much. They are considered the best in their field and I agree (Please no flame war, it's just a personal opinion). Many report 20-25 years using them with top performance. I think I can't go wrong with Gitzo, just that. True I'll invest a lot initially, but I expect it to endure a lot also.

[Cristiano Abreu]

You're welcome. More to come...



Here's where I'm confused. The tripod you are considering, the Gitzo 3540XLS costs $750. Yet, you consider a $329 head out of your price range. Putting a lesser quality, inexpensive head on an expensive leg set seems like false economy to me. This doesn't make sense to me. Yes, a rigid set of legs is important, and you've said you want to save weight, but have you considered spending a little less on the legs and a little more on the head to get a better price/performance match between the two? The tripod head you choose will likely have just as much impact on the overall rigidity of your support system than the the tripod legs. And, the head will probably have a MUCH bigger impact on ease of use and the overall enjoyment of using the equipment. If I was in your situation, rather than spend $750 on a tripod and $125 - $200 on a head, I'd consider spending $500 on the legs and $350 on the head. That gets you in the same total price range (less actually), but would seem to give you a better match in terms of quality between the legs and tripod head.



Again, I'm confused by what you said you wanted, and what you are considering buying. In your original post you said your goal was to reduce the weight of what you carry in the field. Yet, according to the specs on the Manfrotto web site the 808RC4 weighs over 3 lbs. (1.39kg) and the 160 nearly 4.5 lbs. (2.00kg). Those are some very heavy heads, especially for someone whose goal is to reduce the weight they are carrying in the field. I have no experience using either of those heads (but I did use a Bogen 3047 for years, replaced it with the ARCA-SWISS B1 due to the intolerable weight of nearly 4.5 lbs.), but one look at the weight specs and I would instantly rule them out for MY use. Again, it seems to be counter productive to spend a fortune on a carbon fiber tripod to save weight and then put a 3 - 4 lb. head on top.



The 410, while not lightweight, actually weighs less (1.22kg = ~2.7 lb.) than the two three-axis heads you mention above. Based on personal experience, if you're max. load is a 4x5 Shen-Hao with a 300mm lens, it will be more than adequate for the task (assuming you are considering an appropriate lightweight 300mm lens, like a 300mm Nikkor M or 300mmm Fujinon C to pair with your Shen-Hao.). It would not be my first choice for weight vs. strength (an ARCA-SWISS or Markins ballhead would), but I would certainly take it over the two heavier three-axis heads you are considering.

Kerry Thalmann
Really Big Cameras
http://www.reallybigcameras.com

Thanks again Kerry.
You are right and I give my excuses for it. I've poorly stated my case on the original post. True, I wanted to reduce overall weight but this assumption was mainly triggered by the problems I'm experiencing with the G1378M ball head. After reading the various posts here (which made me reconsider other options) and checking the specs more thoroughly, it's like you said, just the option GT-3540XLS+410 (3.19 kg) and GT-3540XLS+808RC4 (3.36 kg) will save me only minimal payload from my current setup G2220+G1378M (3.45 kg). The 160 will increase it instead (3.97 kg). For very long field trips every grams counts, true, but I'm still more concerned with sturdiness and ease/precision of adjustments. Therefore, I'll have to stay with the heavier and more robust heads.

You are right of course, the B1 will save me a few grams. But I'm almost certain that I'll prefer geared or 3-way pan-tilt heads for my LF work (The Arca cube C1 is totally out of my reach, unfortunately). 3 independent axis adjustments are just better IMO, slower to adjust but more precise.

With respect to the huge cost difference of the Gitzo legs and Manfrotto heads, I see it that way. Tripods essentially work all the same way. If ones read the specs and buy a renowned brand, famous for it's longevity and sturdiness, the odds that something goes wrong are very limited. Therefore, I can make the big investment with reassured confidence. I'm expecting to buy a strong and light CF tripod that will serve me for many, many years to come (reports of 20-25 years or more of abuse and still strong performance from Gitzo's owners are good news for me).
For the head, it's totally different. I can't test it beforehand and have to web order it. Imagine I buy an expensive Arca B1g and then find it doesn't suite my style, not because it lacks smoothness or sturdiness (which I'm certainly sure it won't), but because I think it has, intrinsically, the same limitations as the G1378M, i.e. less than adequate precision of positioning. 3 independent axis sounds better to me, just that.
Therefore, if I order the much less expensive Manfrotto alternatives, the chances that I don't like the way it works are minimized by the initial investment. You see, here in Portugal, the possibilities to resell at a good price are not as high as in the States. I expect to loose a considerable percentage of the original price or to wait for a long period before finding a buyer. So, If I make a moderate investment and don't like the product, losses will not be as high. I can buy another head almost as soon, and sell the other less concerned if it's taking too long to sell without a major loss.

[Cristiano Abreu]

You are right, as there seems to be no RRS dealer in Europe. However, ordering from the US is very interesting at the moment, considering the dollar/euro rate. I have received a few items from RRS last week, and although I had to pay for local customs taxes, it was still a very good deal, and their stuff is really top notch.

Thanks for the input Aender. I'll consider what you said for future purchases, when I want stuffs only available in the States. True, the Euro/Dollar is greatly favorable to us now, but for sure the Portuguese customs are more greedy than those of Luxembourg. If I'm not mistaken your VAT is something like 16% or lower. Here in Portugal it's 21% and the customs usually charge a lot for the paperwork.
As a former experience, I've ordered a few photography books (yes books!) from National Geographic directly from the States, and ended up paying more in customs surcharges + VAT + UPS paperwork than the total prices of the books. A thing that would cost me less than 50 Euros, ended up past 100 Euros. I don't even want to imagine how things could end with photo gear

[Cristiano Abreu]

...
Here's where I'm confused. The tripod you are considering, the Gitzo 3540XLS costs $750. Yet, you consider a $329 head out of your price range...
http://www.reallybigcameras.com

Sorry Kerry, I forgot to mention in my former post that the Arca-Swiss B1g runs at 347 GBP + VAT (around 583 Euros or more than 800 USD!) at Robert White, UK. It's a lot more than you said and also in relation to the Manfrotto ones... maybe because it's a new version I don't know? and I can't seem to find cheaper in Europe. It's also difficult to find on-line sellers that provide Arca material. A few UK and French pro studio/shops do but the prices are not a thing to jump about. Normally, the cheaper and more digitally oriented ones go only for the more popular Manfrotto and Gitzo pro stuff. For the "real" and not so popular pro stuff, normally there's only one alternative in Europe, the UK, and the GBP is not cheap... maybe I'm looking in the wrong places?
e-Bay could be an alternative, but I'm a bit suspicious in buying heads that could be heavily abused, without having the chance to test them beforehand. The Portuguese pro photo used gear market is very small (I could even say microscopic in relation to LF). It could pass months or years before I see some Arca, Linhof, Wista on auction, that I could drive 1 ou 2h just to check the gear. Far from the opportunities you get there in the States, where the used market is really big. For nothing you are more than 200 millions and we are just a tiny 10 millions

[Aender Brepsom]

Cristiano,

check out this website from a very reputable dealer in Munich/Germany, Isarfoto:

https://www.isarfoto.com/cms.php/_pi...0/Produkt.html

for the Arca Swiss Monoball Z1 sp (single pan) for 278 EUR

or here:

https://www.isarfoto.com/cms.php/_pi...0/Produkt.html

for the Arca Swiss Z1 dp (double pan) with QR clamp for 415 EUR.

They also have the Monoball B1e for 296 EUR.

I have been buying stuff from Isarfoto for many years now and couldn't be more satified with their service.