Four dollars a gallon.

[roteague]

I think that one idea that would have lasting benefits would be to immediately raise the mileage requirements for autos to 32 mpg (if the auto makers can't deliver, they can not sell)

Then you will be walking very quickly. There is not a auto manufacturer on the plant who can make that goal.

The only way to get even close it through diesel, but diesel emission standards keeps changing so fast the, no one can keep up with them.

Hybrids aren't a particulary good answer. Yes, they get better gas mileage, at the expense of other types of pollution - battery raw materials are strip mined in Canada, sent by ship to Europe for refining then to Japan for final processing. Not very clean, nor very efficient. Not to mention that some manufacturers hybrids won't work on large vehicles - i.e., Toyota, Nissan, Ford. Although GM, Mercedes and BMW (using GM technology) hybrids work on vehicles of all sizes, trucks, down to small cars, they are going to take years to get through the production cycle (GM will start shipping 9 hybrids over the next year or so) and appear on the road.

[Donald Miller]

Then you will be walking very quickly. There is not a auto manufacturer on the plant who can make that goal.

The only way to get even close it through diesel, but diesel emission standards keeps changing so fast the, no one can keep up with them.

Hybrids aren't a particulary good answer. Yes, they get better gas mileage, at the expense of other types of pollution - battery raw materials are strip mined in Canada, sent by ship to Europe for refining then to Japan for final processing. Not very clean, nor very efficient. Not to mention that some manufacturers hybrids won't work on large vehicles - i.e., Toyota, Nissan, Ford. Although GM, Mercedes and BMW (using GM technology) hybrids work on vehicles of all sizes, trucks, down to small cars, they are going to take years to get through the production cycle (GM will start shipping 9 hybrids over the next year or so) and appear on the road.

Hmmm...guess that you disagree with a lot of other people on mileage attainable. I see no reason to walk with the standards that I suggested.

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/list/...7/article.html

http://cars.about.com/od/helpforcarb...top10_fuel.htm

http://www.autobytel.com/content/res...memid=19453014

[roteague]

Hmmm...guess that you disagree with a lot of other people on mileage attainable. I see no reason to walk with the standards that I suggested.

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/list/...7/article.html

http://cars.about.com/od/helpforcarb...top10_fuel.htm

http://www.autobytel.com/content/res...memid=19453014

Oh, I understand where you are coming from, and there are cars that attain that now, but for the majority of people small cars are sufficient.

However, most of the cars you point to are all small cars, some, like the Honda Insight are no longer being made, while others like the VW diesels can't be sold in California (and the other states that have adopted the CA standard). Small cars aren't for everyone, and, unlike Europe, you can't sell a small car for a premium price in the US.

But, where does that leave minivans, SUVs, light duty trucks, etc.? Currently, the most fuel efficient SUV (Chevy Tahoe Hybrid) still only gets about 20mpg. While GM (and others) are working on diesel engine technology, there are new diesel emission standards coming in 2009. One note: US diesel standards are 5 times more stringent than European standards (and the reason we don't get diesel engines from there).

Both diesel and hybrid technologies are expensive, in many cases outweighing the benefit of higher mileage. With hybrids, you also have the problem of, while reducing gasoline usage, increasing other problems for the environment, like air, water and ground pollution. Don't forget, in the case of Toyota hybrids, battery materials are strip mined in Canada, shipped to Europe for refining, then shipped to Japan to make the batteries - that potentially uses a lot of energy (shipping by boat isn't free).

No, the real problem with fuel prices is our economy, as you and others have pointed out.

[roteague]

"There is not a auto manufacturer on the plant who can make that goal."

Bring a lot of the European and Japanese diesel vehicles into the US. Mercedes has a nice luxury model that gets 40mpg. VW has three models that get over 60mpg, including small trucks and delivery vehicles. One model gets 90mpg+ on the highway.
Audi has models that get 40+mpg.

It can be done and is being done. They just don't bring them into the US.

As I pointed out, they are not being brought in the US because they don't meet US diesel emission standards. US emission standards are 5 times tougher than European standards. The only European diesel that is 50-state compliant is the Mercedes BlueTec - check out the price on this, and you will find out why they aren't more widely used. All the other diesels sold in the US can only be sold in 45 states - they can't be sold in California, an no manufacturer is going to ignore the California market.

Diesels are coming, but not until they meet the specs. Once again, there is no auto manufacturer that can "currently" meet the goal.

[roteague]

Some of you might be intrested in this article:

BMW 520d beats Prius in gas mileage

"Readers of London's Sunday Times kept telling the auto reporters that the official mileage numbers for the Prius were overstated by about 15 imperial mpg. Intrigued, the Times decided to test things out by running a Prius against a BMW 520d with regenerative braking from London to Geneva, a 460-mile trip. Then they added 100 miles of urban running to give the Prius a chance to recover ground on its proper turf.

The verdict: the conventional diesel with Efficient Dynamics beat the full hybrid by 2.2 imperial mpg, or 1.8 US mpg."

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/23/b...n-gas-mileage/

Of course, the BMW 520d isn't available in the US.

[roteague]

True, but sadly with OPEC acting as a cartel there is no open market.

If there were a new source of oil, the OPEC nations would likely restrict supply in order to maintain high prices. This has been their technique in the past, and was the basis for their recent discussions a few weeks ago.

btw - petrol here in Oz is currently US$5.40/Gallon for the good stuff. $4 sounds cheap!!!

The price of petrol has more to do with the value of the US dollar. Oil is paid for in US dollars, and with the weakness of the dollar, prices are raised to make up for it. Contrary to popular belief, the US gets most of its oil from Canada and Mexico, not the Middle East. I think Australia gets most of its from Indonesia (but I could be mistaken).

[David Luttmann]

Some of you might be intrested in this article:

BMW 520d beats Prius in gas mileage

"Readers of London's Sunday Times kept telling the auto reporters that the official mileage numbers for the Prius were overstated by about 15 imperial mpg. Intrigued, the Times decided to test things out by running a Prius against a BMW 520d with regenerative braking from London to Geneva, a 460-mile trip. Then they added 100 miles of urban running to give the Prius a chance to recover ground on its proper turf.

The verdict: the conventional diesel with Efficient Dynamics beat the full hybrid by 2.2 imperial mpg, or 1.8 US mpg."

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/23/b...n-gas-mileage/

Of course, the BMW 520d isn't available in the US.

Not to mention the fact that the Prius is as ugly as sin. Why is it that manufacturers seem to think that their hybrids need to look like the vehicles out of Woody Allen's "Sleeper."

[John Z.]

I disagree Roteague; hybrids that are coming along in the next few years will be getting close to 80 mpg or more, and will include a Lexus Prius, more roomy and comfortable. Shortly afterwards, there will be plug in hybrids too. My Camry hybrid gets 34mpg, and it is the first step in the new technology. Combine that with the fact that I now have solar panels on my home that supply 100% of my electricity, and you can easily see a point in time where are cars are solar powered indirectly through the plug in hybrid technology. I disagree about hybrids trading one type of pollution for another; even when cars do operate off the power grid eventually, it is much cleaner than burning gasoline. Check out Priuschat.com for much more lengthy debates on these topics. As the saying goes; 'You must be the change you wish to se in the world'.

[roteague]

I disagree Roteague; hybrids that are coming along in the next few years will be getting close to 80 mpg or more, and will include a Lexus Prius, more roomy and comfortable. Shortly afterwards, there will be plug in hybrids too. My Camry hybrid gets 34mpg, and it is the first step in the new technology. Combine that with the fact that I now have solar panels on my home that supply 100% of my electricity, and you can easily see a point in time where are cars are solar powered indirectly through the plug in hybrid technology. I disagree about hybrids trading one type of pollution for another; even when cars do operate off the power grid eventually, it is much cleaner than burning gasoline. Check out Priuschat.com for much more lengthy debates on these topics. As the saying goes; 'You must be the change you wish to se in the world'.

I'm well aware of the debates on this subject, I spent a lot of time over at the GMInside News forum. GM will be introducing 9 hybrids over the next year, so there is a lot of discussion about this.

Whether you agree or not, it is well known where the materials come from for hybrid batteries and where they are shipped for processing - that entails a significiant amout of fuel used, just to ship materials around for processing. Not to mention that fact that battery technology is really dirty. Nothing is free, including with hybrids.

Lexus hybrids are performance hybrids; they are not designed for economy of gas mileage. Toyota itself will tell you that their hybrid system (HSD) won't scale to large vehicles - one of the reasons it is estimated that the Lexus LS600h will take 3770 years to pay off the difference in price based upon gas mileage over the non hybrid LS; the RX 400h is in the same boat.

Fortunately for the hybrid lover, the GM hybrid system will scale (and will be used by GM, BMW, Mercedes and Chrysler). Unlike the Toyota hybrid, which primarily works at low speed (acting as a drag at highway speeds), the GM hybrid system works at both city and highway driving.

Personally, I see the future not in hybrids, but in pure electric vehicles - like the Chevy Volt, which will be introduced in 2010. However, at this time in history, hybrids can't match diesel technology for mileage - including bio diesel.

[Kirk Keyes]

However, at this time in history, hybrids can't match diesel technology for mileage - including bio diesel.

Speaking of which - where's my new Jetta TDI? I hope they are not waiting until summer to start selling them... I want it NOW!