Introducing Chamonix Whole Plate Camera

[Sal Santamaura]

Because some people want to use Kodak or Fuji film.

Can't help on Fuji, but stay in touch with Michael Kadillak. Kodak may be including 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 in its TMY custom cuttings.

And believe it or not some may want to shoot in color.

Now that's a tough one. You are the first person I've read discussing 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 and color in the same thread. Personally, I look at this as a format for the long haul, and expect that color sheet film in general will become extinct before black and white "whole plate" film does.

[james zhou]

Hugo,

Do you know if Chamonix has a store front anywhere in China? I am traveling to Beijing very soon, and would like to take a look at their 12x20 and hopefully buy one...

James.

[Kirk Gittings]

Here is something I have been pondering. It doesn't affect me very much because I only shoot 4x5 these days and have no interest in ULF.

Does the resurgence of antique and non standard film sizes, 7x17, 12x20, 5x8, 6.5x8.5 etc. dilute the demand for LF film? If I were a large manufacturer looking to maintain my sales in an ever shrinking film market, it would be easier and probably more profitable to focus my facilities on fewer standard film sizes that were higher volume. For instance back in the day when I was doing all my own C printing for my business, I much preferred doing standard print sizes that I could print in volume rather than custom sizes (which I charged much more for, but was never really as profitable as the volume standard sizes).

[David Karp]

Interesting question Kirk.

Perhaps these sales of non-standard sizes are quite profitable for them. There is little promotion cost for the manufacturer. The customers are there and they pre-pay. The company makes the film and cuts it to sizes that it knows it will sell. There is no production for general distribution, so they don't have to wonder if a store is going to call and order some odd sized film. For that matter, there is little inventory cost, because the items are shipped to the retailers as they are completed, and the retailers then distribute the items to their customers (and some order and inventory extra so that they will have some supply for customers in the interim period between special orders). This model might be the wave of the future for companies that want to stay in the film business.

On the other hand, Ilford committed to do this even though the second year's orders were lower than they preferred. That may have been because photographers ordered so much in the first year because they did not believe the opportunity would recur.

[Oren Grad]

Does the resurgence of antique and non standard film sizes, 7x17, 12x20, 5x8, 6.5x8.5 etc. dilute the demand for LF film? If I were a large manufacturer looking to maintain my sales in an ever shrinking film market, it would be easier and probably more profitable to focus my facilities on fewer standard film sizes that were higher volume.

For both Kodak and Harman, the overhead burden of all those extra SKUs is mitigated by the fact that they're cutting only to prepaid special order; in Harman's case, only once a year, and with Kodak, by special arrangement. So they don't have to worry about tying up capital and warehouse space in perishable stock, and it also seems clear from the delivery schedules that they work these into production calendars as the ebb and flow of regular production allows, rather than dropping everything to get them done.

It's clear from discussions on APUG and at the factory in Mobberley that the problem of cannibalizing sales of existing products has been very much on the minds of Harman management as they've evaluated proposed new products for the Ilford line. But in this area in particular, I suspect the overall sales of the odd sizes are still a small fraction of the already small sales of sheet film, and that some of it actually does represent incremental new sales. It's certainly true that, over the past couple of years, I bought considerably more HP5 Plus in the odd sizes through my special orders than I would ever have purchased of the standard sizes through the usual retail channels.

I doubt that the special cuts are highly profitable - I'm not even sure Harman hasn't lost money so far on setting them up. (I don't know nearly so much about how it works at Kodak - Michael's the expert on that.) But in a shrinking market where a higher proportion of the remaining customers are likely to be strongly-committed amateurs and professionals with special requirements rather than casual users, these special cuts are a relatively inexpensive way of demonstrating responsiveness to customer needs and strengthening the customer relationship. And while they can't afford, say, to develop an entirely new emulsion just for this purpose, in this case, once the cutting masks and SKUs are set up, all that's required is slightly different finishing and packing of an existing product. Nothing needs to change on the coating line itself.

[Hugo Zhang]

James,

I believe Chamonix has dealers in Beijing, but I have not visited their stores. Ask Sandy who visited a Chamonix store in Beijing a few weeks ago. I am not sure they have a 12x20 waiting for you.

Hugo

[Michael Kadillak]

Here is something I have been pondering. It doesn't affect me very much because I only shoot 4x5 these days and have no interest in ULF.

Does the resurgence of antique and non standard film sizes, 7x17, 12x20, 5x8, 6.5x8.5 etc. dilute the demand for LF film? If I were a large manufacturer looking to maintain my sales in an ever shrinking film market, it would be easier and probably more profitable to focus my facilities on fewer standard film sizes that were higher volume. For instance back in the day when I was doing all my own C printing for my business, I much preferred doing standard print sizes that I could print in volume rather than custom sizes (which I charged much more for, but was never really as profitable as the volume standard sizes).

I actually feel that the sales of non-standard film sizes stand alone as an incremental non-recognized market completely independent from sales in 4x5 and 8x10. I heard from inside sources that Kodak did not consider the fact that there was interest in these alternative formats and were pleasantly surprised (after the fact) at this incremental revenue stream. Initially that was why it was such a tough sales job. as they (Kodak) thought I was smoking something. Now Kodak gets it.

Consider this. In every sheet of 12x20 there are 12 sheets of 4x5 film. The orders of magnitude of gross units Kodak sold did in fact improve as the last ULF deal a master roll of TMY was sold in several months and concurrently sales of TMY 4x5 and 8x10 also increased in volume. Units of sales is all that matters to Kodak. The cutting machines are indifferent as to what proportions are fed into them. As a result I believe that these formats complimented each other. If a photographer that shoots ULF and LF can gain access to the same high quality emulsion across the board it makes sense to standardize on that particular film. Keeps things one dimensional and easier.

With the next offering I expect a similar synergy.

Cheers!

[Brian Ellis]

You guys don't have abything better to do but gripe about a new LF product announcement in the products forum?

Jeez Louise!

You apparently didn't read the first paragraph of my message. I said I had no problem with the announcement. That's hardly a gripe.

[sanking]

James,

I believe Chamonix has dealers in Beijing, but I have not visited their stores. Ask Sandy who visited a Chamonix store in Beijing a few weeks ago. I am not sure they have a 12x20 waiting for you.

Hugo

I don't believe there are stores in Beijing where you can see Chamonix cameras, but I don't know that for sure. When I was there in September one of the instructors from the China Arts Academy took me and my friend Sam Wang to the studio of the photographer He Chong Yue, who in addition to being a very important Chinese photographer is also one of the owner/managers of Chamonix. In his studio, which is located in an artist colony on the outskirts of Beijing, not far from the 798 artist center, Mr. He had a number of Chamonix cameras on display, including 4X5, 7X17, 4X10, 5X8, and 20X24. I did not see a 12X20, but then again I did not see the 7X17 until I asked. I did purchase a 7X17 directly at that time, at full market value, but I figure to have saved at least $250 or so on shipment since I took it with me on leaving.

He Chong Yue was in Atlanta recently for an exhibition of his work, and he was leaving the next day for New York. I attended the exhibition, and the next day interviewed him for a short article on his work. I do have direct contact information. Please contact him directly for information about Chamonix cameras on display in Beijing. His email is hechongyue@gmail.com. So far as I know Mr. He does not speak or read Chinese but I suspect he will find a way to answer your reply. If you are interested in more contact information please pm me.

I should mention one other thing. There is a huge camera mall in Beijing, called Camera World or something like that, where you will find dozens and dozens of different camera stores offering all kinds of high quality 35mm, MF and LF, and even ULF equipment, new and used. Best stuff in the world, though most of the prices are not that bargain. I saw Shen-Hao cameras in several of the stores but no Chamonix.

Sandy King

[Fred L]

That would be off Wukesong rd. It's not too far a walk north from the subway stop ( I took a cab from Jinguoman). If you have a map, it's near or is the fourth ring road and the place is a candy store.Tons of small shops crowded into a large bullding. A friend who just came back picked up a Shen Hao there and is quite chuffed.

If 798 is the place I remember, it's quite a place filled with galleries and artist workshops. A very nice way to spend the day.