Agreed. And perhaps give it a boost of contrast. Though we'll have to pay Ilford prices now.Originally Posted by Toyon
Agreed. And perhaps give it a boost of contrast. Though we'll have to pay Ilford prices now.
Hi Colin,
I'm sorry, I may not have expressed it well (I am aging ungracefully). We photographers are in a time of transition, film to digital. I think a majority of those who have interest in this forum started with film and have some ties to it. The 10 year-olds are now starting with digital media and will always accept that medium as their anchor.
In 10 years we may be fortunate to buy film at any price and will probably be very happy if there is one company manufacturing it, definitely not upset over an acquisition like the one discussed in this thread. I hope I am wrong because I will use film until I die or can't get any more.
Oren, I know that Ilford are much more efficent in their coating operation than they used to be and I am sure you have seen the lines. Coating machines are fairly intricate and when combined with emulsion chemistry require a fair amount of finesse to keep happy. I get the feeling that the forum viewers believe that one can go to "Coating Machines R Us" and bring one home in a pickup truck. My brother in law was technical services director at Ansco/Gaf, actually while they owned Ilford, and I got to see their coating machine in operation on a number of occasions. The entire line was several stories high and blocks in length..to build one of these machines that works is a good accomplishment....Evan Clarke
Yes. They have two coating lines, a very small one that's primarily for R&D and the main production line, which is a city block long and a wonder to behold. Amazingly, they do manage to run all the different varieties of film and paper - all the different emulsions and bases - on that one coating line. It is indeed a very impressive accomplishment, and requires an enormous amount of experience to pull off - it's not something you can read out of a cookbook and get right. The experience, skill and judgment of the engineers and technicians who have been running the line for years are a critical part of the value that Harman/Ilford provides to the market and would be difficult or impossible to duplicate. As Ron Mowrey has pointed out elsewhere, the tacit knowledge in the heads of these people is a precious resource that's depeleting steadily as the market shrinks, people retire, and new resources and new hires are focused elsewhere.
The finishing equipment is much smaller scale, and very well-suited to batch mode production.
So Ilford, excuse me, Harman, now owns Ilford, Kentmere and Forte ?
Harman owns Forte? I missed that bit of news.
As I've said before on this forum I'm prepared to put all my faith in the East, Europe or Asia.
Going back a few posts, I offered to go to the Ilford factory and collect some 11x14 film because they were marketing this size in the U.S. BUT not in the U.K. where the stuff is made. Yeah, things have changed, they claim that 11x14 is now available in this country but as I've lost interest in Harmans products I can't be bothered to find a retail outlet. Just to get the facts right not only one e-mail was ignored.
I'll try coating my own plates/filmbase before I go digital, but I firmly believe that film, especially B & W film, has a future. This is a shrinking world thanks to the Internet and if the stuff ends up being available only from China (or wherever) it won't be a problem, will it? If some of you are prepared to order a camera from Chinese manufacturers where's the problem in ordering a box or two of film?
Pete.
Harman owns Ilford (silver halide product lines) and Kentmere. Forte is out of business. Bergger used to sell product manufactured by Forte. Now they will have product manufactured for them by Harman. Nobody on the outside knows yet whether the products manufactured by Harman under contract for Bergger will use the old Forte formulas or not.
Pete, you are Angry. If you emailed me with this kind of attitude (please don't) I'd ignore you too.
The fact is that no one will ever again become rich making silver-based products; I hope that people with an interest in traditional photography will own and manage companies that are profitable enough to keep going. And I hope that Ilford and Kentmere products survive. If that means that the prices of reliable paper and film need to go up by a reasonable amount, so be it.
Steve, thank you for keeping the forum informed.
Thanks for the explanation Oren. I didn't know that Bergger was made by Forte.
Michael, don't worry, I got over it months ago.
Pete.
Just back from PhotoExpo; the Harman rep was happy to let me know that they are actually seeing an increase in film sales, rather than the decrease most of us probably expect (as most of you may know, Harman Technologies is now the producer of Ilford's "wet darkroom" film, paper, and chemistry, while Ilford produces the digital paper). Perhaps things aren't quite as gloomy as we make out. (Granted, he didn't explicitly mention paper, but at least outwardly the people both at Harman, and over at the FS Distribution/Kentmere booth) seemed upbeat.
I don't know why, but there are too many people assuming (without reason) that it is only a matter of time before film based photography is no more. This is often based on some alarmist figures, such as the reduction in sales of new film cameras and something else. They make the assumption that because nobody is buying new film cameras, nobody is using film, which is nonsense. Don't forget, "assume" makes an "ass "out of "u" and "me".
Whilst people are entitled to their own opinions, too many people expressing this as fact can create a self-fulfilling prophecy. I.e. the more it is written, the more people read it, and use digital instead, so reducing the viability of the market. This I see as the biggest danger to film based photography, an own goal if you like.
Whilst some sectors of the film based market have declined very rapidly, some are holding there own, and it is clear that Harman/Ilford are confident that there is a good future ahead. Just lets hope enough photographers do as well.
Steve
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