Professional flatbed scanners?

[sanking]

Hi Sandy,

Since you have a lot of experience with both less than $1000 scanners and then Eversmart, is it possible to do several scans say with an Epson (for shadows, midtones and highlights) and together approach the quality of the Eversmart. I imagine there will still be noise, but is the resultant scan at least in the ballpark or is it light and day going to the Creo Eversmart Pro?

For sure one pays for what one gets, but how competant can a most cereful combo scan with an Epson or Microtek be?

Also are there practical special needs for pyro stained negatives that definately require the higher end scanner. I'm thinking of the subtle gradations.

Asher

Asher,

First, there is indeed a world of difference between a high end flatbed like the Scitex EverSmart and the Epson and Microtek consumer flatbeds. For example, the Epson 4990 is advertised to be 4800 spi resolution, but you will be very lucky to get effective resolution of 2000 ppi, even when the position of the material to be scanned is placed the optimal position relative to the lens. By contrast, my EverSmart Pro, which has optical resolution of 3175 spi, will actually deliver over 3100 spi in effective resolution.

However, if you are scanning B&W film the effective resolution of a tabloid scanner like the Microtek 9800 or 1000, or the Epson 1600 and 10000, is more than enough for B&W ULF negatives, and assuming you don't overexpose and/or overdevelop, the dynamic range of these scanners should be sufficient. Problem is that physical characteristics of the Microtek 9800 and 10000 are not good for stitch scanning ULF negatives since these scanners have a lip above the surface of the glass. Epson 1600 and 10000 is better for this, but for the same price you may be able to find a used high end flatbed. That is the option I considered for a long time, and I eventually decided that the best choice for me for LF and ULF negatives, was a high end flatbed.

Finally, there are no special needs of pyro stained negatives that make high end flatbeds necessary. I have made many beautiful carbon and pt./pd. prints from PMK and Pyrocat-HD negatives scanned on Epson 4870 and 4990. However, it is important to expose and develop film so that you do not exceed, or even approach for that matter, the Dmax limit of the scanner. If you do, there will be no way to capture the detail in the highlights with consumer flatbed.

Sandy

[Asher Kelman]

Asher,

First, there is indeed a world of difference between a high end flatbed like the Scitex EverSmart and the Epson and Microtek consumer flatbeds. For example, the Epson 4990 is advertised to be 4800 spi resolution, but you will be very lucky to get effective resolution of 2000 ppi, even when the position of the material to be scanned is placed the optimal position relative to the lens. By contrast, my EverSmart Pro, which has optical resolution of 3175 spi, will actually deliver over 3100 spi in effective resolution.

However, if you are scanning B&W film the effective resolution of a tabloid scanner like the Microtek 9800 or 1000, or the Epson 1600 and 10000, is more than enough for B&W ULF negatives, and assuming you don't overexpose and/or overdevelop, the dynamic range of these scanners should be sufficient. Problem is that physical characteristics of the Microtek 9800 and 10000 are not good for stitch scanning ULF negatives since these scanners have a lip above the surface of the glass. Epson 1600 and 10000 is better for this, but for the same price you may be able to find a used high end flatbed. That is the option I considered for a long time, and I eventually decided that the best choice for me for LF and ULF negatives, was a high end flatbed.

Finally, there are no special needs of pyro stained negatives that make high end flatbeds necessary. I have made many beautiful carbon and pt./pd. prints from PMK and Pyrocat-HD negatives scanned on Epson 4870 and 4990. However, it is important to expose and develop film so that you do not exceed, or even approach for that matter, the Dmax limit of the scanner. If you do, there will be no way to capture the detail in the highlights with consumer flatbed.

Sandy

HI Sandy,

What sort of prices are you talking about to get into the professional level qualities we need? I want the scanner for both color negatives as well a B&W pyro stained film that can be used for either Platinum prints or else regular prints.

I can see that 3000 dpi would be plenty for almost all purposes.

Thanks for sharing your extensive experience!

Asher

[sanking]

HI Sandy,

What sort of prices are you talking about to get into the professional level qualities we need? I want the scanner for both color negatives as well a B&W pyro stained film that can be used for either Platinum prints or else regular prints.

I can see that 3000 dpi would be plenty for almost all purposes.

Thanks for sharing your extensive experience!

Asher

Asher,

If you check the prices at Genesis (Joe posted a link in an earlier message on this thread) you should be able to find a good high end flatbed for your needs at $5K or less. Ted Harris has good contacts and may be able to help you locate good used flatbed.

You can probably get one for a lot less than that on ebay, or from local pre-press companies, if you are prepared to take some risk and/or have some mechanical ability to fix things. For example, an EverSmart Pro at Genesis is $5k, but several EverSmart Pro II have not sold in recent auctions on ebay for less than that.

The risk in buying on ebay (significant IMO) is that the scannner will be DOA. The other issue is operating software as some of the high end flatbeds may have to be run with MAC 9.2.2 systems, or older. The potential gain is that if you get one in good condition it will probably last for years and years, assuming moderate use. Given the size and weight of these units, and the fact that shipping costs for repair will be very large, I would highly recommend buying directly from a person that allows both (1) local pick-up, and (2) checking out the scanner. If you don't do this, chances are good that you will wind up with a very expensive piece of useless piece of scanner furniture.

I took a risk with ebay auction, got a DOA scanner that I had to repair, but in the end paid about $2K total for an EverSmart Pro, which scans at 3175 ppi (and that is very close to effective resolution as you would expect with a drum scanner). Given the fact that it is built like a tank, and designed to be used 7/24/365 I figure that with reasonable luck this scanner will satisfy my LF and ULF needs for a very long time.



Sandy King

[Asher Kelman]

I took a risk with ebay auction, got a DOA scanner that I had to repair, but in the end paid about $2K total for an EverSmart Pro, which scans at 3175 ppi (and that is very close to effective resolution as you would expect with a drum scanner). Given the fact that it is built like a tank, and designed to be used 7/24/365 I figure that with reasonable luck this scanner will satisfy my LF and ULF needs for a very long time.
Sandy King

Thanks Sandy,

That's great information. I wonder whether there is a serivce center people might have experience with in the Los Angeles area?

Would Genesis refurbish the scanner purchased on Ebay?

Asher

[jetcode]

For those who may be interested in the Cezanne scanners; I just found out that a software upgrade from OS9 to OSX is $850 and takes 4-6 weeks for delivery. My only real problem with the OS9 version is finding a color calibration tool for OS9. The OSX version likely has some improvements over the OS9 version.

Joe

[Asher Kelman]

For those who may be interested in the Cezanne scanners; I just found out that a software upgrade from OS9 to OSX is $850 and takes 4-6 weeks for delivery. My only real problem with the OS9 version is finding a color calibration tool for OS9. The OSX version likely has some improvements over the OS9 version.

Joe

Hi Joe,

That's great information. Is it possible that the Cezanne can be seriviced or is it tough luck if something goes wrong? I was told by Genesis that Eversmart are easily repaired with guidance over the phone!

I like the idea of OS X software, for the same reason; getting profiles. Genesis thought that canned profiles for hte Eversmart series work perfectly and referred me to Kodak for methods of getting profiles in under OS 9.0 which the Eversmart Pro II needs.

Did you find a good source ofd information on the Cezanne?

Thanks,

Asher

[Ted Harris]

Joe and Asher,

Sorry to have been away from this thread for most of last week but I was too dog tired at the end of the day after Photo Plus to do much writing.

Regarding Cezanne support its right there in Chicago when you need it and several authorized repair sites for various things around the country. However, if you pay less than 10 grand for the machine and anything serious goes wrong you may be better off pitching it. To a certain extent the same holds true for Creo scanners too. OTOH, not much goes wrong with these machines very often except replacing the bulbs on a regular basis (which, of course, you do yourself).

As for OS X and Color Genius, the version I run is the 2.0.6.x and it runs on OSX up through 10.3.x. The limiting factor is the SCSI card, not the software. It will run under OSX 10.4.x but I have never bothered since swapping my current AdaptecSCSI card for the necesssary ATTO card would cost $350 or so and for what advantage? In my case I have a G5 dedicated to scanning. The machine has two bootable internal drives, one, running 10.3.8 for the Cezanne and the other running 10.4.x for the IQSmart 3. I boot up accoring to which scanner I am running. If I am in heavy production mode I can run either off of a different machine as well.

What additional information are you looking for on the Cezsanne?

A final cautionary note, one I have mentioned before. There are some really fantastic buys around these days on high end scanners with many in top condition going for 10 cents to 20 cents on the dollar, or less. OTOH, at these prices it is often 'buyer beware.' Sandy got lucky on the purchase of his Eversmart Pro, very lucky. There are others hwo have had to make substantial investments after the initial purchase before their machines were running and yet others who found they wasted money on a boat anchor. The same holds true of repairs. Remember you are buying an industrial machine, manufactured to tight tolerance industrial standards and meant to operate in an industrial environment; a machine with repair costs and channels that go with the original costs and supposed application. These machines will serve you well as long as you have room for them but they were't made for home use; neither for that matter were their software packages or the supporting manuals.

[sanking]

Hi Joe,

That's great information. Is it possible that the Cezanne can be seriviced or is it tough luck if something goes wrong? I was told by Genesis that Eversmart are easily repaired with guidance over the phone!

I like the idea of OS X software, for the same reason; getting profiles. Genesis thought that canned profiles for hte Eversmart series work perfectly and referred me to Kodak for methods of getting profiles in under OS 9.0 which the Eversmart Pro II needs.

Did you find a good source ofd information on the Cezanne?

Thanks,

Asher

Asher,

Service is one of the risk factors in a used high end flatbed. Because of their size, and initial cost, machines of this type have historically been serviced on site. All of the high end flatbeds I have seen are very large and very heavy. The EverSmart, for example, takes up space of about 32"X29"X13" and weighs over 160 lbs. I beleive the Cezanne is even larger and heavier.

I did mention earlier that the EverSmart Pro that I purchased arrived not working, even though the status lights indicated it was OK. However, it did respond to software diagnosis so that I was able to convey the error code to a technician at a repair center in New Jersey. He correctly determined the problem, sold me the correct replacement part, and walked me through installation. Had it been necessary to ship the scanner to New Jersey (I am in South Carolina) shipping costs would have been $700-$900 back and forth, plus labor, plus parts. I probably saved at least $1200-1500 doing the installation of the part myself.

Sandy King

[jetcode]

Hi Joe,

That's great information. Is it possible that the Cezanne can be seriviced or is it tough luck if something goes wrong? I was told by Genesis that Eversmart are easily repaired with guidance over the phone!

I like the idea of OS X software, for the same reason; getting profiles. Genesis thought that canned profiles for hte Eversmart series work perfectly and referred me to Kodak for methods of getting profiles in under OS 9.0 which the Eversmart Pro II needs.

Did you find a good source ofd information on the Cezanne?

Thanks,

Asher

The Cezanne is fully serviceable and Screen USA would know more about this. So far I need no service and most likely will only need bulbs if and when they expire. The Cezanne is a well built machine. If you buy through Genesis they guarentee the scanner for 90 days and you don't make the final payment until you verify the unit is not dead on arrival. My scanner has been well cared for. There are a couple of very minor scuffs on the film holder (holds the film flat) and a tiny scuff on the white reference. Genesis tests the scanner before shipping. They will not sell a bad scanner. I asked about a different scanner and it had been used for parts so they pulled it from their inventory.

[Asher Kelman]

Thanks Ted, Sandy and Joe!

The Cezanne is thus an excellent scanner to buy used from a reputable source.

Would all the same ideas also apply to the the Creo Eversmart flatbeds which are available at even better bargain prices. Is there OS X software and can profiling be performed in OS X?

Now when the big dealers say the machines are "reconditioned" and they clean all the lenses etc, how much weight would you give that from the big dealers?

Asher