Selling at craft markets - hard lessons learned.

[Jim Jones]

I've been selling B&W photos in local arts & crafts fairs for maybe 30 years in rural Missouri. As people see more and more of my photos, sales gets better and better. In this venue, it isn't a really profitable business. However, if I'm going to shoot and print, I might as well also sell.

There are many approaches to selling. One is to soak the suckers for all they're worth. That is repugnant to one who grew up in an atmosphere of cooperation, not competition. It's nicer to give friends and neighbors the best possible deal. This means offering an unconditional and unquestioned moneyback guarantee, although no one has returned a photo yet. It also means offering archival quality, even though the photos may be treated as ephemera by the buyers. Above all, it means economizing, and becoming efficient at the drugery of printing, mounting, matting, and framing photos. Although a modest price increase looms in the near future, 11x14 prints archivally mounted and matted sell for $20, and framed for $40. This seems high in an area where a few dollars over minimum wages is considered a decent income. Yet, people with little money appreciate their art as much as do the rich.

[naturephoto1]

Scott,

Brian is correct about the information regarding Don's pricing. My matted 8" X 10" photos sell near the top of the range that Brian has mentioned and my 11" X 14" (16" X 20" mat) sell above the range.

Additionally, Don's prices were above mine that I sell as 16" X 24" or 19" X 24" photos. I do not make the $400 that you suggested for Don's $650 framed 20" X 24" photos. With my next price increase once the photos are being sold through Galleries I will be making a profit of $400 but they will still sell for substantially less than $650 or even $600.

Most of my work due to its nature and subject matter at this point can sell 2-3 X as many in the 20" X 30" or the 24" X 30" size than in the 16" X 24" or 19" X 24" size. I make a profit of over $500 for my framed work in the larger size with Tru Vue Conservation Clear UV glass.

My main clientèle consists of well educated middle middle, upper middle, affluent, and even millionaires. Most of my work is sold as decorative art work for homes and offices. A fair percentage of my work is in offices of Doctors, Attorneys, Dentists, Hospitals, Consultants, and other businesses.

Much of my pricing and profit is accomplished due to purchases of materials at wholesale, volume discounts, and special pricing. I purchase my glass, foam core, mat boards, tapes, wire, etc. at volume wholesale prices. My frames are purchased directly from the maker with no middle man as such special (below wholesale) prices. Additionally, my photos are purchased due to a long term volume discount pricing.

Consider what you were suggesting for Don's photos as to profit of $400 for his $650 framed 20" X 24" photos. You point out about all of the costs involved with Art Fairs. However, if Don were to sell his work in a Gallery for that same price he would only make $200. If on the other hand, Don were to double his prices and sell the work through galleries, he would still only make a profit of $400. Many galleries will only sell work on consignment.

In my case, when I adjust the pricing so that I can sell at both Art Fairs as well as in galleries, I will supply the Gallery with a Higher End Frame and Tru Vue Museum Glass. I will have lower costs involved with the gallery but will only make a profit of about $400 for framed 20" X 30" and 24" X 30" (High End Frame and Museum Glass) photos. At the Art Shows on the other hand for the same size photos with my less expensive frames and UV Glass with the new pricing I will make a profit of close to $600.

Rich

[tim atherton]

Originally Posted by scott_6029
Also, remember Edward Weston died with $300 (?) in his bank account...

At the time when Ansel Adams started his career, the market for photographic prints was almost non-existent.

And yet in 1908 from a single show at Stieglitz's Gallery 291, Steichen sold enough prints and got enough orders for extra prints to support himself and his family comfortably for over a year

(with the sale of some of his paintings in a parallel show extending it to about two years worth of income)

[tim atherton]

But then Steichen was also good/lucky - as a result of that show he also later got a number of portrait commissions at $500 a time (1908 dollars - what's that - somewhere between $10,000 and $15,000 a pop in today's dollars?) - which meant he really didn't need to make much more money until WWI

And isn't his still the vintage photographic print sold for highest amount ever at nearly 3 million? Interstingly, no Ansels close to that price yet I think?

[r.e.]

What strikes me about this discussion is the assertion that this is about trying to sell great photography to an ignorant, unappreciative public.

There's always the possibility that what is really happening is a reasonably intelligent public reacting to mediocre photography. .

To be specific...

One of the people who has participated in this thread has some really nice things to say about a fellow photographer whom he says sells very well at what he says are art juried shows, as distinct from what in this discussion seems to be regarded as lower class craft shows.

The person who wrote this post gave the photographer's URL, and so I went to it. What one discovers is that all of his prints are mounted such that there is an inspirational quotation under the photograph.

There are a couple of ways to respond to this. One of those ways is to gag.

...

Myself, I'd be interested in knowing whether anybody has experience with what is known as Affordable Art Shows, an outfit that operates in the UK, Australia and New York.

It is extremely successful, and it is perhaps interesting to note that the organizers accept galleries as exhibitors, not individual artists.

[alec4444]

Jerome/All-
Do you know if there is any "advantage" to having one-of-a-kind (more or less) prints like hand coated prints (salt prints, Vandykes, pt/pd)? Does that angle add any value to the over-saturated digital print market at these fairs? Thanks. Paul

Oh I totally think so. In Brooklyn we have "stoop sales" which is the equivalent of "garage sales" in the burbs. Between being in an NYC apartment (think small) and being a pack rat, I feel I don't have a lot to sell when the Block Association decides to run a block wide stoop sale. (My wife begs to differ) But I'm definitely not one to sit out these kind of events, so I'm constantly trying to come up with something to sell. Two favorites have been cheesecake and cyanotypes. The latter were made on the spot on a nice sunny day. I'd go out with a fist full of Brooklyn negatives and a bunch of paper I made the day before and a bucket of water. Neighborhood kids love to watch. I setup my view camera for people to look through, and I print on the spot. They were priced cheaply, but it more than covered paper and chemicals (which for cyanotype are pretty cheap). Most were still wet when sold.

As another person said, having something to set yourself apart from others is important. And as Eddie pointed out, there's increased interest in places people have been, so the local angle works well too.

In my case, it wasn't really about turning profits - more about meeting people, talking about photography, and supporting the fun I had that day. If I lost no money and people learned something and got a cool image out of the deal, I had a good day.

Cheers!
--A

[paulr]

What strikes me about this discussion is the assertion that this is about trying to sell great photography to an ignorant, unappreciative public.

It's more about acknowledging that the art fair audience tends to be shopping for crafts and wall decorations. The fairs don't seem to attract that many art and photography collectors/admirers. Maybe because the fairs are so full of things like ... photos captioned with inspirational phrases??

I'd be interested in knowing whether anybody has experience with what is known as Affordable Art Shows... It is extremely successful, and it is perhaps interesting to note that the organizers accept galleries as exhibitors, not individual artists.

I don't know this show in particular, but fairs that admit dealers instead of individual artists are common (they include photo ny, aipad, the armory show, etc.). In the upscale market when people mention art fairs, this is what they're talking about. These fairs attract collectors and people who love art, in higher proportion to people looking for something to match the couch.

[Greg Lockrey]

What strikes me about this discussion is the assertion that this is about trying to sell great photography to an ignorant, unappreciative public.

There's always the possibility that what is really happening is a reasonably intelligent public reacting to mediocre photography. .

To be specific...

One of the people who has participated in this thread has some really nice things to say about a fellow photographer whom he says sells very well at what he says are art juried shows, as distinct from what in this discussion seems to be regarded as lower class craft shows.

The person who wrote this post gave the photographer's URL, and so I went to it. What one discovers is that all of his prints are mounted such that there is an inspirational quotation under the photograph.

There are a couple of ways to respond to this. One of those ways is to gag.

...

Myself, I'd be interested in knowing whether anybody has experience with what is known as Affordable Art Shows, an outfit that operates in the UK, Australia and New York.

It is extremely successful, and it is perhaps interesting to note that the organizers accept galleries as exhibitors, not individual artists.

Yes, we have an outfit that comes through here and sets up shop in motels that sell Chinese made prints (not that they are all that bad...just cheap). They have to be pretty good to, they advertise on TV.

Selling photography as pieces of art is just plain tough in any venue. Even painters I know won't do the "arts and crafts" shows anymore either since most of the clientel are out with the family and more into buying spur of the moment nick-nacks than carrying a painting home since there is no space to carry anything larger than 11x14" in the first place. If you are selling less expensive poster quality along with your fine art examples, you may move a few that way. Most people don't have a clue to how much a good framing job costs either. Sometimes offering ready to hang on the wall piece puts your object out of their price range. Have a variety of price points to offer.

[r.e.]

Yes, we have an outfit that comes through here and sets up shop in motels that sell Chinese made prints (not that they are all that bad...just cheap). They have to be pretty good to, they advertise on TV.

That's not quite what I mean by the Affordable Art Show. Here's the NY site: http://www.aafnyc.com/

It's a lot like the Armory show, referred to by Paulr.

[Greg Lockrey]

That's not quite what I mean by the Affordable Art Show. Here's the NY site: http://www.aafnyc.com/

It's a lot like the Armory show, referred to by Paulr.

I was trying to be faceious. This neck of the woods is too low end for aafnyc, we are more like NW Missiouri that an earlier post mentioned. Around here if you don't have a Kinkaid then you don't have real art.